3 ms·

> there is a massive difference between the cultural imperialism of megacorporations and hard-power imperialism of, say, invading Vietnam. True, but one cannot

> there is a massive difference between the cultural imperialism of megacorporations and hard-power imperialism of, say, invading Vietnam. True, but one cannot exist without the other. How would the US invade Vietnam (or Afghanistan) without industries to manufacture weapons and surveillance tools? How can they pillage all their resources without predatory industry collaborating with the occupier? > For all that Facebook and Google and the NSA know so much about us that they’d make the Stasi drool with envy, they’re not the Stasi. I guess the major difference is the Stasi was working for a single Nation State, whereas the 3 entities you named perform political-repression-as-a-service for many governments around the planet. The Stasi was pretty bad for east germany but they held no power elsewhere: now every political police on earth is equipped with stasi-like superpowers thanks to Silicon Valley. > that persecution predates the birth of Zuckerberg, and Facebook didn’t have any triggers to pull or boots to put on the ground. True, but Facebook had a choice: from what i read it was founded as a stalking/girl-rating site by geeky sociopaths, which is already pretty dark. But when they early on censored breastfeeding women and torrent links while letting nazi/misogynist content go rampant was a very political choice in favor of very violent ideologies, and they should be held accountable (not talking about the US judicial system which is just as bad if not even worse).

ben_w 5y ago
> I guess the major difference is the Stasi was working for a single Nation State, whereas the 3 entities you named perform political-repression-as-a-service for many governments around the planet The NSA? No, I don’t think they’re for-hire. And the others aren’t in the business of political repression: none are known for kidnapping people and driving them around in an unmarked van for intimidation. Perhaps the NSA also kidnaps people, but I don’t remember Snowden mentioning it. > True, but Facebook had a choice… All of which reflects badly on the business and its leadership, and yet is very very different to an actual repressive regime. You do get that repressive regimes will take a family and order their parents to decide which child lives and which child dies, right? Even though I agree with you that Facebook going “freedom of speech for everything except the defining characteristic of mammals” is a bad thing, that’s peanuts in comparison.
- beckman466 5y ago
  > The NSA? No, I don’t think they’re for-hire. The United States of America, always an ally and at service to friendly right-wing politicians from around the world. "What was the sense at the time of the degree to which the United States was involving itself in undermining Allende’s government? MS: I think most people knew, and part of this was because a scandal broke in 1972 that the Chilean subsidiary of ITT had lobbied the CIA to intervene and fund different renegade military factions in Chile to try to keep Allende out of office during that brief two-month window between when he was elected in September of 1970 and when he would be sworn in, in November 1970. So it was fairly common knowledge that, despite the public declarations by the White House that they were neutral toward Chile or that they had no official oppositional stance to him, behind the scenes, the CIA as well as the White House were actively opposed to Allende." source: https://jacobinmag.com/2020/09/salvador-allende-chile-coup-pinochet https://jacobinmag.com/2020/09/salvador-allende-chile-coup-p... great recent docu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJLA2_Ho7X0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJLA2_Ho7X0
- southerntofu 5y ago
  > The NSA? No, I don’t think they’re for-hire. I didn't say "for hire" specifically. But they certainly pass intel to friends as part of the 5 eyes & other intelligence agreements, as well as on specific operations, such as in Rojava or in Ukraine. Also worth mentioning although i can't find the link right now: ex-3letter-agency workers who started working for a private company contracted by saudi intelligence services who were employed for political repression (although the job was advertised as hunting down terrorists). > And the others aren’t in the business of political repression: none are known for kidnapping people and driving them around in an unmarked van for intimidation. And yet the DHS does just that, both for deportations [0] and political repression [1]. > Perhaps the NSA also kidnaps people, but I don’t remember Snowden mentioning it. Snowden wasn't concerned by kidnapping: he was really afraid the NSA would drone the entire neighborhood he was hiding in (which is arguably worse), like USA police who not so long ago (1985) bombed an entire neighborhood (destroying 65 houses) and killed 5 children for the sake of political repression. [2] But kidnapping is definitely a thing though maybe not by NSA: see CIA black sites and the inhumane treatment of detainees post-9/11 (waterboarding, etc). > You do get that repressive regimes will take a family and order their parents to decide which child lives and which child dies, right? I appreciate the distinction. From my political activities, I'm acquainted with many political refugees, some of whom have been tortured while others had family members imprisoned/disappeared/executed. But it's worth noting that our "democratic" (cough cough) governments have a strong history of doing that too, and only recently have they stopped because they've improved the subtlety of their counter-insurrection techniques. Still, there's plenty of people framed by State services [3], plenty of political prisoners [4], people mutilated by police forces or outright executed... Some people would even argue that dictatorship/fascism is the logical byproduct of liberal democracy and its (supposedly enlightened) centralized control and enforcement structures. What if Trump had been reelected (or worse, had successfully seized power), do you think you would have kept your social comfort very long? The same problems apply in France where i reside, where a new form of anti-muslim nazism is rising (thanks to the media oligarchy spreading FUD). The last time the nazis seized power, we had genocide after genocide, even long after WWII ended (see also, french genocide in Algeria and the 1961 Vel d'Hiv sweep). [0] https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/10/13/dhs-migrants-guatemala-honduras-unmarked-vans/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/10/13/dhs-migrants-guatemala-... [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/17/portland-protests-federal-arrests/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/17/portland-pr... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE [3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/16/fbi-entrapment-fake-terror-plots https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/16/fbi-entrapment... [4] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jul/30/black-panther-radicals-still-in-jail https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jul/30/black-panthe...

ben_w 5y ago

> I guess the major difference is the Stasi was working for a single Nation State, whereas the 3 entities you named perform political-repression-as-a-service for many governments around the planet The NSA? No, I don’t think they’re for-hire. And the others aren’t in the business of political repression: none are known for kidnapping people and driving them around in an unmarked van for intimidation. Perhaps the NSA also kidnaps people, but I don’t remember Snowden mentioning it. > True, but Facebook had a choice… All of which reflects badly on the business and its leadership, and yet is very very different to an actual repressive regime. You do get that repressive regimes will take a family and order their parents to decide which child lives and which child dies, right? Even though I agree with you that Facebook going “freedom of speech for everything except the defining characteristic of mammals” is a bad thing, that’s peanuts in comparison.

beckman466 5y ago
> The NSA? No, I don’t think they’re for-hire. The United States of America, always an ally and at service to friendly right-wing politicians from around the world. "What was the sense at the time of the degree to which the United States was involving itself in undermining Allende’s government? MS: I think most people knew, and part of this was because a scandal broke in 1972 that the Chilean subsidiary of ITT had lobbied the CIA to intervene and fund different renegade military factions in Chile to try to keep Allende out of office during that brief two-month window between when he was elected in September of 1970 and when he would be sworn in, in November 1970. So it was fairly common knowledge that, despite the public declarations by the White House that they were neutral toward Chile or that they had no official oppositional stance to him, behind the scenes, the CIA as well as the White House were actively opposed to Allende." source: https://jacobinmag.com/2020/09/salvador-allende-chile-coup-pinochet https://jacobinmag.com/2020/09/salvador-allende-chile-coup-p... great recent docu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJLA2_Ho7X0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJLA2_Ho7X0
southerntofu 5y ago
> The NSA? No, I don’t think they’re for-hire. I didn't say "for hire" specifically. But they certainly pass intel to friends as part of the 5 eyes & other intelligence agreements, as well as on specific operations, such as in Rojava or in Ukraine. Also worth mentioning although i can't find the link right now: ex-3letter-agency workers who started working for a private company contracted by saudi intelligence services who were employed for political repression (although the job was advertised as hunting down terrorists). > And the others aren’t in the business of political repression: none are known for kidnapping people and driving them around in an unmarked van for intimidation. And yet the DHS does just that, both for deportations [0] and political repression [1]. > Perhaps the NSA also kidnaps people, but I don’t remember Snowden mentioning it. Snowden wasn't concerned by kidnapping: he was really afraid the NSA would drone the entire neighborhood he was hiding in (which is arguably worse), like USA police who not so long ago (1985) bombed an entire neighborhood (destroying 65 houses) and killed 5 children for the sake of political repression. [2] But kidnapping is definitely a thing though maybe not by NSA: see CIA black sites and the inhumane treatment of detainees post-9/11 (waterboarding, etc). > You do get that repressive regimes will take a family and order their parents to decide which child lives and which child dies, right? I appreciate the distinction. From my political activities, I'm acquainted with many political refugees, some of whom have been tortured while others had family members imprisoned/disappeared/executed. But it's worth noting that our "democratic" (cough cough) governments have a strong history of doing that too, and only recently have they stopped because they've improved the subtlety of their counter-insurrection techniques. Still, there's plenty of people framed by State services [3], plenty of political prisoners [4], people mutilated by police forces or outright executed... Some people would even argue that dictatorship/fascism is the logical byproduct of liberal democracy and its (supposedly enlightened) centralized control and enforcement structures. What if Trump had been reelected (or worse, had successfully seized power), do you think you would have kept your social comfort very long? The same problems apply in France where i reside, where a new form of anti-muslim nazism is rising (thanks to the media oligarchy spreading FUD). The last time the nazis seized power, we had genocide after genocide, even long after WWII ended (see also, french genocide in Algeria and the 1961 Vel d'Hiv sweep). [0] https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/10/13/dhs-migrants-guatemala-honduras-unmarked-vans/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/10/13/dhs-migrants-guatemala-... [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/17/portland-protests-federal-arrests/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/17/portland-pr... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE [3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/16/fbi-entrapment-fake-terror-plots https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/16/fbi-entrapment... [4] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jul/30/black-panther-radicals-still-in-jail https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jul/30/black-panthe...