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Alpha/Beta/Sigma/Omega/Upsilon male is discredited pseudo-scientific bullshit, and it is a bad idea to base one's personal philosophy on it. I also disagree tha

Alpha/Beta/Sigma/Omega/Upsilon male is discredited pseudo-scientific bullshit, and it is a bad idea to base one's personal philosophy on it. I also disagree that bullying is natural, but if even if it is, that still does not mean it should be accepted, tolerated, or encouraged (which you are implying).

kqr 5y ago
I disagree. While the alpha male terminology seems a bit oversimplified, the fact remains that all sorts of violence, be it physical, verbal, or social (e.g. preventing someone from joining in the play) is a tool people use in varying degrees to influence relationships. It's a dangerous tool, because it's so stupid. Beating someone is effectively saying "I don't care how well reasoned your arguments are, now you pretend to listen to me instead." But this stupidity is both its weakness and its strength. Violence is a very complicated tool, and I think people need some exposure to it (on both sides of it) to understand when its appropriate and (more frequently) when it's uncalled for. This does not mean it's tolerated or encouraged -- quite the opposite! It's important to be the role model that teaches children all the circumstances in which it's wrong! But pretending it serves no social function makes, I think, you a worse teacher. By completely denying the upsides of violence you become less trustworthy as a teacher, because even children can see the obvious short-term upsides!
gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
This. Dominance hierarchies exist, but aren’t alpha, beta whatever. We aren't wolves, we’re more like bonobos.
- glogla 5y ago
  Not even wolves are this way. In their family lives, wolves have lifelong monogamous relationships. In their pack lives, wolves have kind of "situational leadership" where they know that wolf X is the best tracker and wolf Y is the best hunter so they follow wolf X to find prey and wolf Y takes lead to hunt it. Other than that, they are pre-democratic - if most of pack wants to do something, the rest follows.
pmarreck 5y ago
It IS natural (unfortunately; not all truths are palatable). And not only that, it's systematic (at least in the States). For example, I am currently "fighting" to get something covered by my health insurance. In the past I have "fought" in court to defend myself from traffic tickets, etc. It's inescapable that you will have to fight for yourself in this life in some form, IMHO. Maybe not physically, necessarily (...home intrusion? attempted robbery? unjust police use of force? Trump getting himself installed as dictator?) but force, willpower, "oomph", it's all connected. Your tone of voice on a phone call or in person? That's an expression of force as well. Fuller comment I wrote on this topic here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30896777 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30896777 The other night I was speaking to someone I just met and realized I was (without even thinking about it) dominating the conversation, so I consciously pulled back out of respect... Perhaps that is the key to managing force, simply respecting others
- bittercynic 5y ago
  While knowing how to speak forcefully is certainly a valuable skill to have, almost every situation I face in life is better approached with friendly confidence. I've met a few people who, when a cashier or waiter makes a mistake, think they need to take control, and demand a resolution, and I think they are just being needlessly unpleasant, and get worse outcomes on average because they're being disrespectful.
  - pmarreck 5y ago
    Agree with that. I think I'm thinking of confident (not disrespectful) force. Just being assertive about what you think you deserve, that sort of thing. And some people are too excessive at it, possibly because others are insufficiently capable of it. I look at Putin (also clearly a bully) and I think, was there a "posture" that Ukraine could have taken prior to this which would have discouraged him before he committed to what he is doing now? "Promising not to join NATO"? I guess the analogy would be a bully beating up a neighbor's kid to prevent him from joining a rival gang? I don't know. You acquiesce to the bully and usually the bully's demands just go up. Could Putin's advisors have gotten past their fear and been more honest with him? Well, that's the problem with ruling with fear (or perhaps I should say "using fear excessively" with the insinuation that plainly confident (but yet respectful) people do strike a bit of fear in others), you never get the whole truth.

kqr 5y ago

I disagree. While the alpha male terminology seems a bit oversimplified, the fact remains that all sorts of violence, be it physical, verbal, or social (e.g. preventing someone from joining in the play) is a tool people use in varying degrees to influence relationships. It's a dangerous tool, because it's so stupid. Beating someone is effectively saying "I don't care how well reasoned your arguments are, now you pretend to listen to me instead." But this stupidity is both its weakness and its strength. Violence is a very complicated tool, and I think people need some exposure to it (on both sides of it) to understand when its appropriate and (more frequently) when it's uncalled for. This does not mean it's tolerated or encouraged -- quite the opposite! It's important to be the role model that teaches children all the circumstances in which it's wrong! But pretending it serves no social function makes, I think, you a worse teacher. By completely denying the upsides of violence you become less trustworthy as a teacher, because even children can see the obvious short-term upsides!

gunfighthacksaw 5y ago

This. Dominance hierarchies exist, but aren’t alpha, beta whatever. We aren't wolves, we’re more like bonobos.

glogla 5y ago
Not even wolves are this way. In their family lives, wolves have lifelong monogamous relationships. In their pack lives, wolves have kind of "situational leadership" where they know that wolf X is the best tracker and wolf Y is the best hunter so they follow wolf X to find prey and wolf Y takes lead to hunt it. Other than that, they are pre-democratic - if most of pack wants to do something, the rest follows.

pmarreck 5y ago

It IS natural (unfortunately; not all truths are palatable). And not only that, it's systematic (at least in the States). For example, I am currently "fighting" to get something covered by my health insurance. In the past I have "fought" in court to defend myself from traffic tickets, etc. It's inescapable that you will have to fight for yourself in this life in some form, IMHO. Maybe not physically, necessarily (...home intrusion? attempted robbery? unjust police use of force? Trump getting himself installed as dictator?) but force, willpower, "oomph", it's all connected. Your tone of voice on a phone call or in person? That's an expression of force as well. Fuller comment I wrote on this topic here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30896777 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30896777 The other night I was speaking to someone I just met and realized I was (without even thinking about it) dominating the conversation, so I consciously pulled back out of respect... Perhaps that is the key to managing force, simply respecting others

bittercynic 5y ago
While knowing how to speak forcefully is certainly a valuable skill to have, almost every situation I face in life is better approached with friendly confidence. I've met a few people who, when a cashier or waiter makes a mistake, think they need to take control, and demand a resolution, and I think they are just being needlessly unpleasant, and get worse outcomes on average because they're being disrespectful.
- pmarreck 5y ago
  Agree with that. I think I'm thinking of confident (not disrespectful) force. Just being assertive about what you think you deserve, that sort of thing. And some people are too excessive at it, possibly because others are insufficiently capable of it. I look at Putin (also clearly a bully) and I think, was there a "posture" that Ukraine could have taken prior to this which would have discouraged him before he committed to what he is doing now? "Promising not to join NATO"? I guess the analogy would be a bully beating up a neighbor's kid to prevent him from joining a rival gang? I don't know. You acquiesce to the bully and usually the bully's demands just go up. Could Putin's advisors have gotten past their fear and been more honest with him? Well, that's the problem with ruling with fear (or perhaps I should say "using fear excessively" with the insinuation that plainly confident (but yet respectful) people do strike a bit of fear in others), you never get the whole truth.