5 ms·

> dystopias > soviet union what about the american imperialism covering much of the globe today? this world is a deep dystopia for a very large amount of peop

> dystopias > soviet union what about the american imperialism covering much of the globe today? this world is a deep dystopia for a very large amount of people already... (and growing) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--TsGaNyr0U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--TsGaNyr0U https://tribunemag.co.uk/2019/01/abolish-silicon-valley https://tribunemag.co.uk/2019/01/abolish-silicon-valley

ThunderSizzle 5y ago
With the current state of affairs, I wouldn't be surprised if the American intelligence community world order collapses within the decade, either from within or from international pressure.
ben_w 5y ago
For all the many flaws that the USA has[0] there is a massive difference between the cultural imperialism of megacorporations and hard-power imperialism of, say, invading Vietnam. For all that Facebook and Google and the NSA know so much about us that they’d make the Stasi drool with envy, they’re not the Stasi. For all that Facebook is getting blamed for enabling and distributing the rhetoric that led to the Rohingya genocide in Myanmar, that persecution predates the birth of Zuckerberg, and Facebook didn’t have any triggers to pull or boots to put on the ground. [0] and as a non-American, I’d add to the Tribune list with things that most Americans I’ve spoken with do not even acknowledge, and of those who do acknowledge them, most favour.
- southerntofu 5y ago
  > there is a massive difference between the cultural imperialism of megacorporations and hard-power imperialism of, say, invading Vietnam. True, but one cannot exist without the other. How would the US invade Vietnam (or Afghanistan) without industries to manufacture weapons and surveillance tools? How can they pillage all their resources without predatory industry collaborating with the occupier? > For all that Facebook and Google and the NSA know so much about us that they’d make the Stasi drool with envy, they’re not the Stasi. I guess the major difference is the Stasi was working for a single Nation State, whereas the 3 entities you named perform political-repression-as-a-service for many governments around the planet. The Stasi was pretty bad for east germany but they held no power elsewhere: now every political police on earth is equipped with stasi-like superpowers thanks to Silicon Valley. > that persecution predates the birth of Zuckerberg, and Facebook didn’t have any triggers to pull or boots to put on the ground. True, but Facebook had a choice: from what i read it was founded as a stalking/girl-rating site by geeky sociopaths, which is already pretty dark. But when they early on censored breastfeeding women and torrent links while letting nazi/misogynist content go rampant was a very political choice in favor of very violent ideologies, and they should be held accountable (not talking about the US judicial system which is just as bad if not even worse).
  - ben_w 5y ago
    > I guess the major difference is the Stasi was working for a single Nation State, whereas the 3 entities you named perform political-repression-as-a-service for many governments around the planet The NSA? No, I don’t think they’re for-hire. And the others aren’t in the business of political repression: none are known for kidnapping people and driving them around in an unmarked van for intimidation. Perhaps the NSA also kidnaps people, but I don’t remember Snowden mentioning it. > True, but Facebook had a choice… All of which reflects badly on the business and its leadership, and yet is very very different to an actual repressive regime. You do get that repressive regimes will take a family and order their parents to decide which child lives and which child dies, right? Even though I agree with you that Facebook going “freedom of speech for everything except the defining characteristic of mammals” is a bad thing, that’s peanuts in comparison.
    - beckman466 5y ago
      > The NSA? No, I don’t think they’re for-hire. The United States of America, always an ally and at service to friendly right-wing politicians from around the world. "What was the sense at the time of the degree to which the United States was involving itself in undermining Allende’s government? MS: I think most people knew, and part of this was because a scandal broke in 1972 that the Chilean subsidiary of ITT had lobbied the CIA to intervene and fund different renegade military factions in Chile to try to keep Allende out of office during that brief two-month window between when he was elected in September of 1970 and when he would be sworn in, in November 1970. So it was fairly common knowledge that, despite the public declarations by the White House that they were neutral toward Chile or that they had no official oppositional stance to him, behind the scenes, the CIA as well as the White House were actively opposed to Allende." source: https://jacobinmag.com/2020/09/salvador-allende-chile-coup-pinochet https://jacobinmag.com/2020/09/salvador-allende-chile-coup-p... great recent docu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJLA2_Ho7X0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJLA2_Ho7X0
    - southerntofu 5y ago
      > The NSA? No, I don’t think they’re for-hire. I didn't say "for hire" specifically. But they certainly pass intel to friends as part of the 5 eyes & other intelligence agreements, as well as on specific operations, such as in Rojava or in Ukraine. Also worth mentioning although i can't find the link right now: ex-3letter-agency workers who started working for a private company contracted by saudi intelligence services who were employed for political repression (although the job was advertised as hunting down terrorists). > And the others aren’t in the business of political repression: none are known for kidnapping people and driving them around in an unmarked van for intimidation. And yet the DHS does just that, both for deportations [0] and political repression [1]. > Perhaps the NSA also kidnaps people, but I don’t remember Snowden mentioning it. Snowden wasn't concerned by kidnapping: he was really afraid the NSA would drone the entire neighborhood he was hiding in (which is arguably worse), like USA police who not so long ago (1985) bombed an entire neighborhood (destroying 65 houses) and killed 5 children for the sake of political repression. [2] But kidnapping is definitely a thing though maybe not by NSA: see CIA black sites and the inhumane treatment of detainees post-9/11 (waterboarding, etc). > You do get that repressive regimes will take a family and order their parents to decide which child lives and which child dies, right? I appreciate the distinction. From my political activities, I'm acquainted with many political refugees, some of whom have been tortured while others had family members imprisoned/disappeared/executed. But it's worth noting that our "democratic" (cough cough) governments have a strong history of doing that too, and only recently have they stopped because they've improved the subtlety of their counter-insurrection techniques. Still, there's plenty of people framed by State services [3], plenty of political prisoners [4], people mutilated by police forces or outright executed... Some people would even argue that dictatorship/fascism is the logical byproduct of liberal democracy and its (supposedly enlightened) centralized control and enforcement structures. What if Trump had been reelected (or worse, had successfully seized power), do you think you would have kept your social comfort very long? The same problems apply in France where i reside, where a new form of anti-muslim nazism is rising (thanks to the media oligarchy spreading FUD). The last time the nazis seized power, we had genocide after genocide, even long after WWII ended (see also, french genocide in Algeria and the 1961 Vel d'Hiv sweep). [0] https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/10/13/dhs-migrants-guatemala-honduras-unmarked-vans/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/10/13/dhs-migrants-guatemala-... [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/17/portland-protests-federal-arrests/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/17/portland-pr... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE [3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/16/fbi-entrapment-fake-terror-plots https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/16/fbi-entrapment... [4] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jul/30/black-panther-radicals-still-in-jail https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jul/30/black-panthe...
chrisweekly 5y ago
I don't have a citation handy but think most would agree the global median standard of living / life expectancy / quality of life is substantially better than it was 100 years ago. Ofc that's not necessarily predictive, but it is consistent with the belief that history's long arc does indeed bends toward justice.
- southerntofu 5y ago
  > it is consistent with the belief that history's long arc does indeed bends toward justice. Then why do inequalities keep rising according to most metrics? Just because the poor fare relatively better (which is debatable depending on which metrics you take) doesn't mean justice is rising.
  - chrisweekly 5y ago
    Maybe substitute "improvement" for "justice"? I'd rather be in the bottom 5% than the middle 50, given better health and comfort in absolute terms. That doesn't excuse injustice and inequality(!) but the absolutes matter, esp. given the context of parent's "things are just bad and getting worse" comment.
    - southerntofu 5y ago
      > That doesn't excuse injustice and inequality(!) but the absolutes matter, esp. given the context of parent's "things are just bad and getting worse" comment. You make a very good point! Yet the metrics you measure also matter. For example, it's fair to say that in terms of "free time" or "environmental pollution" things have absolutely gotten worse over the past centuries. I definitely think it's possible that some communities/States collapsed in the past due to local climatic changes or environmental pollution (for example desertification due to over-exploitation of wood, or water pollution due to rejects from metal workshops falling into the single available source). But in the past this was the exception not the norm. A few weeks back on HN frontpage there was a survey of hundreds of water sources worldwide, only two of which were unpolluted by medicine (the study did not consider other forms of pollution), and some time later was a study about 1/3 of the world population drinking lead-polluted water. In that sense, everything is fucked up because even if your local community respects the environment, you can be sure there's a damn industry upstream polluting everything, or a neighboring chemical agriculture field killing the insects that keep your own food sources available, polluting the water sources... I don't think the "are we faring better?" question can be answered in binary terms, but i think the "negative" side of things is shocking enough that it requires no less than an actual revolution to fix: as long as the people fucking things up for everyone else will profit from it, nothing good can come out of the system.
cuteboy19 5y ago
I've always observed that defenses of the Soviet Empire are essentially just whataboutisms. But this is the first time I am seeing it literally start with the words "what about"

ThunderSizzle 5y ago

With the current state of affairs, I wouldn't be surprised if the American intelligence community world order collapses within the decade, either from within or from international pressure.

ben_w 5y ago

For all the many flaws that the USA has[0] there is a massive difference between the cultural imperialism of megacorporations and hard-power imperialism of, say, invading Vietnam. For all that Facebook and Google and the NSA know so much about us that they’d make the Stasi drool with envy, they’re not the Stasi. For all that Facebook is getting blamed for enabling and distributing the rhetoric that led to the Rohingya genocide in Myanmar, that persecution predates the birth of Zuckerberg, and Facebook didn’t have any triggers to pull or boots to put on the ground. [0] and as a non-American, I’d add to the Tribune list with things that most Americans I’ve spoken with do not even acknowledge, and of those who do acknowledge them, most favour.

southerntofu 5y ago
> there is a massive difference between the cultural imperialism of megacorporations and hard-power imperialism of, say, invading Vietnam. True, but one cannot exist without the other. How would the US invade Vietnam (or Afghanistan) without industries to manufacture weapons and surveillance tools? How can they pillage all their resources without predatory industry collaborating with the occupier? > For all that Facebook and Google and the NSA know so much about us that they’d make the Stasi drool with envy, they’re not the Stasi. I guess the major difference is the Stasi was working for a single Nation State, whereas the 3 entities you named perform political-repression-as-a-service for many governments around the planet. The Stasi was pretty bad for east germany but they held no power elsewhere: now every political police on earth is equipped with stasi-like superpowers thanks to Silicon Valley. > that persecution predates the birth of Zuckerberg, and Facebook didn’t have any triggers to pull or boots to put on the ground. True, but Facebook had a choice: from what i read it was founded as a stalking/girl-rating site by geeky sociopaths, which is already pretty dark. But when they early on censored breastfeeding women and torrent links while letting nazi/misogynist content go rampant was a very political choice in favor of very violent ideologies, and they should be held accountable (not talking about the US judicial system which is just as bad if not even worse).
- ben_w 5y ago
  > I guess the major difference is the Stasi was working for a single Nation State, whereas the 3 entities you named perform political-repression-as-a-service for many governments around the planet The NSA? No, I don’t think they’re for-hire. And the others aren’t in the business of political repression: none are known for kidnapping people and driving them around in an unmarked van for intimidation. Perhaps the NSA also kidnaps people, but I don’t remember Snowden mentioning it. > True, but Facebook had a choice… All of which reflects badly on the business and its leadership, and yet is very very different to an actual repressive regime. You do get that repressive regimes will take a family and order their parents to decide which child lives and which child dies, right? Even though I agree with you that Facebook going “freedom of speech for everything except the defining characteristic of mammals” is a bad thing, that’s peanuts in comparison.
  - beckman466 5y ago
    > The NSA? No, I don’t think they’re for-hire. The United States of America, always an ally and at service to friendly right-wing politicians from around the world. "What was the sense at the time of the degree to which the United States was involving itself in undermining Allende’s government? MS: I think most people knew, and part of this was because a scandal broke in 1972 that the Chilean subsidiary of ITT had lobbied the CIA to intervene and fund different renegade military factions in Chile to try to keep Allende out of office during that brief two-month window between when he was elected in September of 1970 and when he would be sworn in, in November 1970. So it was fairly common knowledge that, despite the public declarations by the White House that they were neutral toward Chile or that they had no official oppositional stance to him, behind the scenes, the CIA as well as the White House were actively opposed to Allende." source: https://jacobinmag.com/2020/09/salvador-allende-chile-coup-pinochet https://jacobinmag.com/2020/09/salvador-allende-chile-coup-p... great recent docu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJLA2_Ho7X0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJLA2_Ho7X0
  - southerntofu 5y ago
    > The NSA? No, I don’t think they’re for-hire. I didn't say "for hire" specifically. But they certainly pass intel to friends as part of the 5 eyes & other intelligence agreements, as well as on specific operations, such as in Rojava or in Ukraine. Also worth mentioning although i can't find the link right now: ex-3letter-agency workers who started working for a private company contracted by saudi intelligence services who were employed for political repression (although the job was advertised as hunting down terrorists). > And the others aren’t in the business of political repression: none are known for kidnapping people and driving them around in an unmarked van for intimidation. And yet the DHS does just that, both for deportations [0] and political repression [1]. > Perhaps the NSA also kidnaps people, but I don’t remember Snowden mentioning it. Snowden wasn't concerned by kidnapping: he was really afraid the NSA would drone the entire neighborhood he was hiding in (which is arguably worse), like USA police who not so long ago (1985) bombed an entire neighborhood (destroying 65 houses) and killed 5 children for the sake of political repression. [2] But kidnapping is definitely a thing though maybe not by NSA: see CIA black sites and the inhumane treatment of detainees post-9/11 (waterboarding, etc). > You do get that repressive regimes will take a family and order their parents to decide which child lives and which child dies, right? I appreciate the distinction. From my political activities, I'm acquainted with many political refugees, some of whom have been tortured while others had family members imprisoned/disappeared/executed. But it's worth noting that our "democratic" (cough cough) governments have a strong history of doing that too, and only recently have they stopped because they've improved the subtlety of their counter-insurrection techniques. Still, there's plenty of people framed by State services [3], plenty of political prisoners [4], people mutilated by police forces or outright executed... Some people would even argue that dictatorship/fascism is the logical byproduct of liberal democracy and its (supposedly enlightened) centralized control and enforcement structures. What if Trump had been reelected (or worse, had successfully seized power), do you think you would have kept your social comfort very long? The same problems apply in France where i reside, where a new form of anti-muslim nazism is rising (thanks to the media oligarchy spreading FUD). The last time the nazis seized power, we had genocide after genocide, even long after WWII ended (see also, french genocide in Algeria and the 1961 Vel d'Hiv sweep). [0] https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/10/13/dhs-migrants-guatemala-honduras-unmarked-vans/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/10/13/dhs-migrants-guatemala-... [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/17/portland-protests-federal-arrests/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/17/portland-pr... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE [3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/16/fbi-entrapment-fake-terror-plots https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/16/fbi-entrapment... [4] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jul/30/black-panther-radicals-still-in-jail https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jul/30/black-panthe...

chrisweekly 5y ago

I don't have a citation handy but think most would agree the global median standard of living / life expectancy / quality of life is substantially better than it was 100 years ago. Ofc that's not necessarily predictive, but it is consistent with the belief that history's long arc does indeed bends toward justice.

southerntofu 5y ago
> it is consistent with the belief that history's long arc does indeed bends toward justice. Then why do inequalities keep rising according to most metrics? Just because the poor fare relatively better (which is debatable depending on which metrics you take) doesn't mean justice is rising.
- chrisweekly 5y ago
  Maybe substitute "improvement" for "justice"? I'd rather be in the bottom 5% than the middle 50, given better health and comfort in absolute terms. That doesn't excuse injustice and inequality(!) but the absolutes matter, esp. given the context of parent's "things are just bad and getting worse" comment.
  - southerntofu 5y ago
    > That doesn't excuse injustice and inequality(!) but the absolutes matter, esp. given the context of parent's "things are just bad and getting worse" comment. You make a very good point! Yet the metrics you measure also matter. For example, it's fair to say that in terms of "free time" or "environmental pollution" things have absolutely gotten worse over the past centuries. I definitely think it's possible that some communities/States collapsed in the past due to local climatic changes or environmental pollution (for example desertification due to over-exploitation of wood, or water pollution due to rejects from metal workshops falling into the single available source). But in the past this was the exception not the norm. A few weeks back on HN frontpage there was a survey of hundreds of water sources worldwide, only two of which were unpolluted by medicine (the study did not consider other forms of pollution), and some time later was a study about 1/3 of the world population drinking lead-polluted water. In that sense, everything is fucked up because even if your local community respects the environment, you can be sure there's a damn industry upstream polluting everything, or a neighboring chemical agriculture field killing the insects that keep your own food sources available, polluting the water sources... I don't think the "are we faring better?" question can be answered in binary terms, but i think the "negative" side of things is shocking enough that it requires no less than an actual revolution to fix: as long as the people fucking things up for everyone else will profit from it, nothing good can come out of the system.

cuteboy19 5y ago

I've always observed that defenses of the Soviet Empire are essentially just whataboutisms. But this is the first time I am seeing it literally start with the words "what about"