12 ms·

A fresh take on why Octavian won the war against Antony and Cleopatra

63 points by diodorus 5y ago

RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago
<> According to Strauss, it was Octavian's reliance on Roman General Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa, who successfully waged a naval campaign to cut off supply lines to Antony's army, giving Octavian the upper hand. Agrippa is one of the most interesting people in history, and the Octavian/Agrippa collaboration has to be one of the most successful and fruitful ever. Agrippa was not just an amazing naval commander, he also was great at organizing as well as an architect and builder. Unlike a lot of other partnerships where jealousy rears its head once they have achieved success (see various bands for instance), there does not seem to be rivalry or jealousy between Octavian/Augustus and Agrippa. His entire life, Agrippa was Octavian's most trusted adviser and friend (and son-in-law).
- foobarian 5y ago
  Random aside, this totally reminds me of the John Dutton/Rip partnership in the show Yellowstone.
- bluedevil2k 5y ago
  And when Augustus's daughter cheated on Agrippa, he sided with Agrippa and banished his own daughter to a tiny island where she couldn't meet with any men without Augustus's prior approval (spoiler alert - he approved no one). Augustus's will even stipulated that his daughter couldn't be put in his tomb upon her death.
  - ARandomerDude 5y ago
    Seems like an appropriate punishment for adultery, to be honest.
  - jallen_dot_dev 5y ago
    "fratres ante meretrices"
  - east2west 5y ago
    Augustus' daughter Julia was married to Agrippa and despite their age difference the marriage was a happy one, as far as history remembers. Agrippa was a man of wide ranging culture and abilities and Julia was a vivacious leader of the cultured noble Romans. She also understood that messing with royal progeny is treason in monarchy, so when she was asked why her two sons both looked like Agrippa when she was widely suspected of adultery, she answered that she never took on passengers unless her cart was full. Julia was banished later when she was married to Tiberius, the second emperor, by Augustus because Julia abandoned all pretense and Tiberius was a hard soldier and able administrator but lacked the refined tact and cultured grace of Agrippa. Tiberius' familial tragedy contributed to his isolation and insane persecution in the last years of his reign.
    - slibhb 5y ago
      > Tiberius' familial tragedy contributed to his isolation and insane persecution in the last years of his reign. Specifically Augustus forced Tiberius to divorce his wife, whom he loved, and commanded him to marry Julia. Suetonius hints that this led to Tiberius' descent into depravity.
boomboomsubban 5y ago
Saying Agrippa gave Octavian the upper hand isn't much of a fresh take. And it's rare to see someone openly admit they go "the sources are hostile, so I largely ignore them and make educated guesses."
- kurupt213 5y ago
  My thought, too. I thought Agrippa’s critical role as imperator was common knowledge.
Aidevah 5y ago
>Barry Strauss: So often in history, people are hidden in plain sight. When I wrote a book some years ago on the Battle of Salamis, I discovered that the Persians had a female admiral named Artemisia. I was taken aback. I thought, "Whoa! How many female admirals are there running around in the ancient world? Why hasn't anybody noticed this?" It strains credulity that he claims Artemisia is a figure that was "hidden in plain sight", considering she was prominently featured in Herodotus account of the battle[1], and anyone reading about the Battle of Salamis today is either reading Herodotus or a paraphrase of Herodotus. [1] Hdt 7.99, 8.68, 8.69 and 8.87, the last of which gives an account of her exploits during the battle: http://data.perseus.org/citations/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0016.tlg001.perseus-eng1:8.87.1 http://data.perseus.org/citations/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0016.t...
- philipov 5y ago
  But isn't that exactly what "in plain sight" means? If people are reading it, but no one is talking about it or taking notice, it becomes hidden to the much vaster population who are reading the summaries of Herodotus instead of the original source.
  - halJordan 5y ago
    I don’t really get this. People actively refuse to read literary classics when they are mandated reading. If we can’t even have a conversation about the brilliance of Shakespeare because people deny it’s worth then how can you blame historians for not proselytizing niche trivia when the audience denies literacy in general. They’d be laughed out of the room, nerds frequently are. The same people feigning interest in Artemisia are the same ones who will tell you education is worthless and a scam.
- Apocryphon 5y ago
  She was so prominent that Eva Green played her as the main character of the forgotten sequel to 300! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/300:_Rise_of_an_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/300:_Rise_of_an_Empire
  - 5y ago
bluedevil2k 5y ago
Bogud is mentioned in the article as an African King who died and is often left out of the story. Another interesting bit of trivia - he was King of what the Romans called Mauretania. Ultimately his dynasty died out and was replaced by...the husband of the daughter of Antony and Cleopatra. That king was replaced by his own son, Ptolemy of Mauretania, who is the grandson of Antony and Cleopatra. He reigned until he was killed by Claudius in Rome in 40.
- arunix 5y ago
  Ptolemy of Mauretania was killed by Caligula, not Claudius.
Ericson2314 5y ago
For better or worse, I think Agrippa is the patron saint of HN.
- ttyprintk 5y ago
  Still waiting on the solution to William Gibson’s: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4230930 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4230930
aestetix 5y ago
"Octavian subsequently became the Roman Emperor Augustus, thereby ushering in the Pax Romana, a 200-year period of peace and prosperity that lasted until 180 CE." Not sure I'd call the reigns of Tiberius, Caligula, and Nero "peace"...

63 points by diodorus 5y ago

<> According to Strauss, it was Octavian's reliance on Roman General Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa, who successfully waged a naval campaign to cut off supply lines to Antony's army, giving Octavian the upper hand. Agrippa is one of the most interesting people in history, and the Octavian/Agrippa collaboration has to be one of the most successful and fruitful ever. Agrippa was not just an amazing naval commander, he also was great at organizing as well as an architect and builder. Unlike a lot of other partnerships where jealousy rears its head once they have achieved success (see various bands for instance), there does not seem to be rivalry or jealousy between Octavian/Augustus and Agrippa. His entire life, Agrippa was Octavian's most trusted adviser and friend (and son-in-law).

foobarian 5y ago
Random aside, this totally reminds me of the John Dutton/Rip partnership in the show Yellowstone.
bluedevil2k 5y ago
And when Augustus's daughter cheated on Agrippa, he sided with Agrippa and banished his own daughter to a tiny island where she couldn't meet with any men without Augustus's prior approval (spoiler alert - he approved no one). Augustus's will even stipulated that his daughter couldn't be put in his tomb upon her death.
- ARandomerDude 5y ago
  Seems like an appropriate punishment for adultery, to be honest.
- jallen_dot_dev 5y ago
  "fratres ante meretrices"
- east2west 5y ago
  Augustus' daughter Julia was married to Agrippa and despite their age difference the marriage was a happy one, as far as history remembers. Agrippa was a man of wide ranging culture and abilities and Julia was a vivacious leader of the cultured noble Romans. She also understood that messing with royal progeny is treason in monarchy, so when she was asked why her two sons both looked like Agrippa when she was widely suspected of adultery, she answered that she never took on passengers unless her cart was full. Julia was banished later when she was married to Tiberius, the second emperor, by Augustus because Julia abandoned all pretense and Tiberius was a hard soldier and able administrator but lacked the refined tact and cultured grace of Agrippa. Tiberius' familial tragedy contributed to his isolation and insane persecution in the last years of his reign.
  - slibhb 5y ago
    > Tiberius' familial tragedy contributed to his isolation and insane persecution in the last years of his reign. Specifically Augustus forced Tiberius to divorce his wife, whom he loved, and commanded him to marry Julia. Suetonius hints that this led to Tiberius' descent into depravity.

boomboomsubban 5y ago

Saying Agrippa gave Octavian the upper hand isn't much of a fresh take. And it's rare to see someone openly admit they go "the sources are hostile, so I largely ignore them and make educated guesses."

kurupt213 5y ago
My thought, too. I thought Agrippa’s critical role as imperator was common knowledge.

Aidevah 5y ago

>Barry Strauss: So often in history, people are hidden in plain sight. When I wrote a book some years ago on the Battle of Salamis, I discovered that the Persians had a female admiral named Artemisia. I was taken aback. I thought, "Whoa! How many female admirals are there running around in the ancient world? Why hasn't anybody noticed this?" It strains credulity that he claims Artemisia is a figure that was "hidden in plain sight", considering she was prominently featured in Herodotus account of the battle[1], and anyone reading about the Battle of Salamis today is either reading Herodotus or a paraphrase of Herodotus. [1] Hdt 7.99, 8.68, 8.69 and 8.87, the last of which gives an account of her exploits during the battle: http://data.perseus.org/citations/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0016.tlg001.perseus-eng1:8.87.1 http://data.perseus.org/citations/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0016.t...

philipov 5y ago
But isn't that exactly what "in plain sight" means? If people are reading it, but no one is talking about it or taking notice, it becomes hidden to the much vaster population who are reading the summaries of Herodotus instead of the original source.
- halJordan 5y ago
  I don’t really get this. People actively refuse to read literary classics when they are mandated reading. If we can’t even have a conversation about the brilliance of Shakespeare because people deny it’s worth then how can you blame historians for not proselytizing niche trivia when the audience denies literacy in general. They’d be laughed out of the room, nerds frequently are. The same people feigning interest in Artemisia are the same ones who will tell you education is worthless and a scam.
Apocryphon 5y ago
She was so prominent that Eva Green played her as the main character of the forgotten sequel to 300! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/300:_Rise_of_an_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/300:_Rise_of_an_Empire
- 5y ago

bluedevil2k 5y ago

Bogud is mentioned in the article as an African King who died and is often left out of the story. Another interesting bit of trivia - he was King of what the Romans called Mauretania. Ultimately his dynasty died out and was replaced by...the husband of the daughter of Antony and Cleopatra. That king was replaced by his own son, Ptolemy of Mauretania, who is the grandson of Antony and Cleopatra. He reigned until he was killed by Claudius in Rome in 40.

arunix 5y ago
Ptolemy of Mauretania was killed by Caligula, not Claudius.

Ericson2314 5y ago

For better or worse, I think Agrippa is the patron saint of HN.

ttyprintk 5y ago
Still waiting on the solution to William Gibson’s: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4230930 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4230930

aestetix 5y ago

"Octavian subsequently became the Roman Emperor Augustus, thereby ushering in the Pax Romana, a 200-year period of peace and prosperity that lasted until 180 CE." Not sure I'd call the reigns of Tiberius, Caligula, and Nero "peace"...