6 ms·

I comment this under any similar threads in the past and will continue to for any Australians who don’t know, but this would be a valid reason for a return/refu

by sen 5y ago

I comment this under any similar threads in the past and will continue to for any Australians who don’t know, but this would be a valid reason for a return/refund under Australian law. A company can’t remove or “functionally change” features after you’ve bought a product, or if they do, you’re allowed to return it for a refund. I’ve done this in the past with a few different pieces of tech already, such as Bose speakers and a Samsung TV.

fernly 5y ago
What kind of "functional change" did Bose do to your speakers, and how? And what happened when you took them -- where? -- to return them?
- mdoms 5y ago
  In both NZ and Australia all returns/refunds and most warranty claims can be done through the retailer who sold you the product. Part of doing business in these markets is being the middle man between the manufacturer and the end customer.
  - spookthesunset 5y ago
    So how does this law affect smartphones?
    - mdoms 5y ago
      Same way it affects anything else, not sure I understand your question.
      - dylan604 5y ago
        Smart phones are ~annually getting major updates that change the functionality of the device. You typically can't revert back either. Some people might not like how the new method of doing something is different than the old. However, you are not forced to apply the update. So that's a bit different. So how does this affect smart phones? ;-)
        sen 5y ago
        It works for all technology, including phones, home appliances, everything. If it has a feature advertised/included on launch, and then they remove or change that feature enough that it no longer works "as advertised", you get an instant refund, even if outside the warranty. We also get longer warranties than most other countries. Even if a brand says you only get a 1 year warranty, our consumer protection laws say a warranty has to apply for "as long as seems reasonable", so for most technology that's 2 years.
        TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
        The Australian Competition & Consumer Commission has this to say: Warranties are separate from your automatic consumer guarantees. The consumer guarantees which apply regardless of any warranties suppliers sell or give to you, apply for a reasonable time depending on the nature of the goods or services. This means consumer guarantees may continue to apply after the time period for the warranty has expired.* https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees/warranties https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees... You can ask for a replacement or refund if the problem with the product is major. What is a major problem? A product or good has a major problem when: it has a problem that would have stopped someone from buying it if they’d known about it it has multiple minor problems that, when taken as a whole, would have stopped someone from buying it if they’d known about them it is significantly different from the sample or description it is substantially unfit for its common purpose and can’t easily be fixed within a reasonable time it doesn’t do what you asked for and can’t easily be fixed within a reasonable time; or it is unsafe. https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees/repair-replace-refund https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees... There is no specific time when the consumer guarantees no longer apply to products. They may apply even after the manufacturer's warranty period has past. The length of the consumer guarantee period depends on a number of factors including: how much time has passed since the consumer bought the product the type of product how a consumer is likely to use the product the length of time for which it is reasonable for the product to be used the amount of use it could reasonably be expected to tolerate before the failure becomes noticeable. https://business.gov.au/Products-and-services/Fair-trading/Australian-Consumer-law https://business.gov.au/Products-and-services/Fair-trading/A...
  - thelittleone 5y ago
    I had a MacBook die just outside of warranty. It was purchased in Australia. I was overseas and spoke with support who said have to pay to fix. Flew to Australia and had it replaced under consumer protection law.
- sen 5y ago
  Bose changed (some of?) their home speakers to "require" you to use their app to set them up or use Spotify/etc, where you use to be able to just cast directly to them. It effectively turned smart speakers into dumb bluetooth speakers unless you did it all from inside their app. I don't want to use their app, and I didn't need to before, and while it was outside warranty the store had no problems refunding me. I was also one of the people who bought a Samsung TV that didn't have ads, then suddenly had ads. That also got me an instant refund with no questions. In both cases I printed out a copy of the product website where they published the changed features (eg the changelog or PR release or whatever I could find) and I also printed off a couple forums/media-articles talking about the changes. The stores didn't question it or have any issues with refunding me, I guess they just then file with the manufacturer for their own refund.
  - jannes 5y ago
    How did you get the TV to the store? I assume you didnt still have the original box lying around? Seems pretty dangerous for the TV’s panel to move it without the box.
    - mitchdoogle 5y ago
      I find it kind of comical anyone would be worrying about this. Maybe because I've moved TVs quite a few times - upright, screen side down, screen side up - from across town to thousands of miles away in the back of a uhaul. It's not a big deal
      - thebiss 5y ago
        It may not be anymore, but it used to be. I bought a 65" Samsung back in 2012, and had to sign to receive it. From the truck through signature, the delivery agent held it like a giant iPad in portrait mode, pinching the long edges of the box. It had a clear "this end up" arrows... pointing sideways. When I turned it on, there was a big dim spot on the top edge of the panel. It had to be exchanged.
  - kgwxd 5y ago
- alephxyz 5y ago
  My guess is their app requiring you to login to set up devices.
KennyBlanken 5y ago
In the United States there's the Magnuson-Moss warranty act which (among other things) places the burden on the manufacturer to prove that your miscare caused the failure; they can't simply say "you jailbroke the firmware, no warranty for you!", nor can they say "you broke that seal, no warranty!", nor can they say "you didn't install a Dodgerific oil filter in your Grand Caravan, so no, we're not going to warranty your spun main bearing" (however, nothing stops them from saying "that oil filter you installed does not have an anti-drainback valve like our oil filter does, thus your engine did not receive lubrication as quickly as it should each time it was started, so that's why your engine is damaged, and we're not going to warranty that." From Wikipedia: > The federal minimum standards for full warranties are waived if the warrantor can show that the problem associated with a warranted consumer product was caused by damage while in the possession of the consumer, or by unreasonable use, including a failure to provide reasonable and necessary maintenance. The MM act also provides for awarding attorney's fees in a lawsuit against a manufacturer for violations of the act. Pretty sweet. Separately, there are implied warranties of merchantability and fitness under the uniform commercial code. US customers are almost completely ignorant of this. It really steams my cabbage when I see people heap praise on a company for warrantying an item that failed horribly, just outside the warranty period, and was an item that is usually quite durable and long-lasting.
- hunter2_ 5y ago
  Does any of this cover the scenario of a customer applying an irreversible manufacturer's update that leads to the product no longer performing every aspect of what was originally advertised? The notion of "damage while in the possession of the consumer" gets a bit murky... I'd try to argue that the consumer temporarily placed the device into the manufacturer's possession during the update process, but I'm not sure if that would hold up.
mrjin 5y ago
Thanks for sharing. I did not know that.

by sen 5y ago

fernly 5y ago

What kind of "functional change" did Bose do to your speakers, and how? And what happened when you took them -- where? -- to return them?

mdoms 5y ago
In both NZ and Australia all returns/refunds and most warranty claims can be done through the retailer who sold you the product. Part of doing business in these markets is being the middle man between the manufacturer and the end customer.
- spookthesunset 5y ago
  So how does this law affect smartphones?
  - mdoms 5y ago
    Same way it affects anything else, not sure I understand your question.
    - dylan604 5y ago
      Smart phones are ~annually getting major updates that change the functionality of the device. You typically can't revert back either. Some people might not like how the new method of doing something is different than the old. However, you are not forced to apply the update. So that's a bit different. So how does this affect smart phones? ;-)
      - sen 5y ago
        It works for all technology, including phones, home appliances, everything. If it has a feature advertised/included on launch, and then they remove or change that feature enough that it no longer works "as advertised", you get an instant refund, even if outside the warranty. We also get longer warranties than most other countries. Even if a brand says you only get a 1 year warranty, our consumer protection laws say a warranty has to apply for "as long as seems reasonable", so for most technology that's 2 years.
        TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
        The Australian Competition & Consumer Commission has this to say: Warranties are separate from your automatic consumer guarantees. The consumer guarantees which apply regardless of any warranties suppliers sell or give to you, apply for a reasonable time depending on the nature of the goods or services. This means consumer guarantees may continue to apply after the time period for the warranty has expired.* https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees/warranties https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees... You can ask for a replacement or refund if the problem with the product is major. What is a major problem? A product or good has a major problem when: it has a problem that would have stopped someone from buying it if they’d known about it it has multiple minor problems that, when taken as a whole, would have stopped someone from buying it if they’d known about them it is significantly different from the sample or description it is substantially unfit for its common purpose and can’t easily be fixed within a reasonable time it doesn’t do what you asked for and can’t easily be fixed within a reasonable time; or it is unsafe. https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees/repair-replace-refund https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees... There is no specific time when the consumer guarantees no longer apply to products. They may apply even after the manufacturer's warranty period has past. The length of the consumer guarantee period depends on a number of factors including: how much time has passed since the consumer bought the product the type of product how a consumer is likely to use the product the length of time for which it is reasonable for the product to be used the amount of use it could reasonably be expected to tolerate before the failure becomes noticeable. https://business.gov.au/Products-and-services/Fair-trading/Australian-Consumer-law https://business.gov.au/Products-and-services/Fair-trading/A...
- thelittleone 5y ago
  I had a MacBook die just outside of warranty. It was purchased in Australia. I was overseas and spoke with support who said have to pay to fix. Flew to Australia and had it replaced under consumer protection law.
sen 5y ago
Bose changed (some of?) their home speakers to "require" you to use their app to set them up or use Spotify/etc, where you use to be able to just cast directly to them. It effectively turned smart speakers into dumb bluetooth speakers unless you did it all from inside their app. I don't want to use their app, and I didn't need to before, and while it was outside warranty the store had no problems refunding me. I was also one of the people who bought a Samsung TV that didn't have ads, then suddenly had ads. That also got me an instant refund with no questions. In both cases I printed out a copy of the product website where they published the changed features (eg the changelog or PR release or whatever I could find) and I also printed off a couple forums/media-articles talking about the changes. The stores didn't question it or have any issues with refunding me, I guess they just then file with the manufacturer for their own refund.
- jannes 5y ago
  How did you get the TV to the store? I assume you didnt still have the original box lying around? Seems pretty dangerous for the TV’s panel to move it without the box.
  - mitchdoogle 5y ago
    I find it kind of comical anyone would be worrying about this. Maybe because I've moved TVs quite a few times - upright, screen side down, screen side up - from across town to thousands of miles away in the back of a uhaul. It's not a big deal
    - thebiss 5y ago
      It may not be anymore, but it used to be. I bought a 65" Samsung back in 2012, and had to sign to receive it. From the truck through signature, the delivery agent held it like a giant iPad in portrait mode, pinching the long edges of the box. It had a clear "this end up" arrows... pointing sideways. When I turned it on, there was a big dim spot on the top edge of the panel. It had to be exchanged.
- kgwxd 5y ago
alephxyz 5y ago
My guess is their app requiring you to login to set up devices.

KennyBlanken 5y ago

In the United States there's the Magnuson-Moss warranty act which (among other things) places the burden on the manufacturer to prove that your miscare caused the failure; they can't simply say "you jailbroke the firmware, no warranty for you!", nor can they say "you broke that seal, no warranty!", nor can they say "you didn't install a Dodgerific oil filter in your Grand Caravan, so no, we're not going to warranty your spun main bearing" (however, nothing stops them from saying "that oil filter you installed does not have an anti-drainback valve like our oil filter does, thus your engine did not receive lubrication as quickly as it should each time it was started, so that's why your engine is damaged, and we're not going to warranty that." From Wikipedia: > The federal minimum standards for full warranties are waived if the warrantor can show that the problem associated with a warranted consumer product was caused by damage while in the possession of the consumer, or by unreasonable use, including a failure to provide reasonable and necessary maintenance. The MM act also provides for awarding attorney's fees in a lawsuit against a manufacturer for violations of the act. Pretty sweet. Separately, there are implied warranties of merchantability and fitness under the uniform commercial code. US customers are almost completely ignorant of this. It really steams my cabbage when I see people heap praise on a company for warrantying an item that failed horribly, just outside the warranty period, and was an item that is usually quite durable and long-lasting.

hunter2_ 5y ago
Does any of this cover the scenario of a customer applying an irreversible manufacturer's update that leads to the product no longer performing every aspect of what was originally advertised? The notion of "damage while in the possession of the consumer" gets a bit murky... I'd try to argue that the consumer temporarily placed the device into the manufacturer's possession during the update process, but I'm not sure if that would hold up.

mrjin 5y ago

Thanks for sharing. I did not know that.