4 ms·

The awful rise of ‘virtue signalling’ (2018)

44 points by t0bia_s 5y ago

mrjangles 5y ago
I think the class warfare aspect of this stuff isn't discussed enough. People also want to differentiate themselves from other classes in some way. These days everyone has money and owns the latest iPhone and can afford nice clothes, so it is a lot harder than it used to be. This is why the concept of "upper class ideas" has surfaced. It is important that these ideas be strange enough that someone from the working class would never except them.
evocatus 5y ago
> No one actually has to do anything. Virtue comes from mere words or even from silently held beliefs. There was a time in the distant past when people thought you could only be virtuous by doing things: by helping the blind man across the road; looking after your elderly parents instead of dumping them in a home; staying in a not-wholly-perfect marriage for the sake of the children. These things involve effort and self-sacrifice. That sounds hard! Much more convenient to achieve virtue by expressing hatred of those who think the health service could be improved by introducing competition. Here's an experiment - the next time you're out (if you still do that), take a look around and see how many people are wearing masks. Of that sample, how many of them have long hair? The thing that typifies white liberals most to me is their desire to be adorned with an aura of virtue while still doing the absolute bare minimum in order to be seen as such. Conspicuous displays such as mask wearing are low-effort, low-cost, require little to no compromise or change in one's lifestyle and behavior, and signal to fellow whites or allied tribespeople that you are on the same side. But when it comes to making an actual sacrifice - not even a significant one, I would posit! - suddenly all those lambasting the "alt right" are nowhere to be found. Short hair, fades, crew cuts abound - what happened? Weren't we just shaming our neighbors on social media for wanting to get haircuts? For having outdoor barbecues in the park? Where were you, when society called for your sacrifice? At the barber's, it seems. Now think - if there are this many people willing to skirt quarantine and stay-at-home orders while making outward displays of conformity... how many more of these self-proclaimed progressives actually secretly harbor racist beliefs while still reciting the common refrains of diversity and inclusion? I've developed tactics for unmasking the fakers and pretend-quarantiners. I am working to develop social technologies to unmask the pretend anti-racists now.
- Jordrok 5y ago
  > displays such as mask wearing are low-effort, low-cost, require little to no compromise or change in one's lifestyle and behavior If only we could have convinced more of the rabid anti-maskers of this. Sadly they were too busy virtue-signalling about how the tyrannical government was stripping away their essential liberties.
  - evocatus 5y ago
    Of course. The problem doesn't (in fact, never) lies with you - it's always the _others_ who are incapable of practicing virtuous acts that are at fault.
    - Jordrok 5y ago
      You sure are making a lot of assumptions about me. I'm not even sure what the problem you're referring to here is. I was just impressed by what a concise, convincing argument in favor of masks you inadvertently made!
      - evocatus 5y ago
        revolvingocelot 5y ago
        >>>>>I've developed tactics for unmasking the fakers and pretend-quarantiners. I am working to develop social technologies to unmask the pretend anti-racists now >I suppose that self-reflection is too much to ask for these days, when we can simply externalize our fears and moral failings unto other groups of people Self-reflection advocate, reflect thyself
        evocatus 5y ago
        [flagged]
8note 5y ago
Virtue signalling is the silliest criticism I've heard of. It boils down to saying something is good because it's critics only dislike it because it makes them look good to criticise it. There's no affirmative arguments for the thing in question, and any argument about virtue signalling just says that society considers the alternative virtuous - an argument against your non-virtuous opinions
- evocatus 5y ago
  If you had read the article, you would have at least addressed their point that many people make ostentatious displays of virtue without actually doing a damn thing in the real world. It's the attempt to paint one's self with good deeds, without actually having done any, that is problematic. Perhaps you are experiencing white fragility from your worldview being questioned?
opensores 5y ago
I fully support the opposite to the current thing ( https://summit.news/2022/03/31/i-support-the-current-thing/ https://summit.news/2022/03/31/i-support-the-current-thing/ ) .
- t0bia_s 5y ago
  Support... You mean sharing on internet?
mr_toad 5y ago
> There was a time in the distant past when people thought you could only be virtuous by doing things: by helping the blind man across the road […] These things involve effort and self-sacrifice. Or if that was too much effort you could just show up at church and complain about the heathens and their wicked ways. Seems to me that what the author is saying is a new phenomenon is actually as old as civilisation.
rayiner 5y ago
Virtue signaling has real consequences because it typically involves majority groups parachuting into terrain about which they know nothing and using their disproportionate influence to distort conversations that are already happening in that space. I’m convinced that progressive virtue signaling in 2020 set the cause of police reform back a decade. Having lived in downtown Atlanta, Baltimore, and Wilmington, I knew that voters in those cities were skittish about crime. These are the moms who show up every year to vote in municipal elections. When Larry Hogan sent the Maryland national guard in to quell rioting in Baltimore after Freddie Gray’s death, his approval rating in the overwhelmingly Black and Democrat city shot up over 70%. Police reform only happens in these communities when voters feel their kids are safe. In the summer of 2020, however, you had people who had never paid any attention to policing or racial justice issues before egging on riots and amplifying some of the stupidest far left ideas. These were people who didn’t live in these communities, had no understanding of the politics in these cities, and had no skin in the game anyway. The result was predictable: homicides skyrocketed, citizens of these cities freaked out, and police budgets are bigger than ever. Atlanta’s previously popular mayor (who had never really supported defund or similar messaging but got painted as not doing enough in response to rising crime) bowed out and didn’t run for re-election. Progressive candidates got hammered in elections like in NYC. The mayor of SF is throwing the city’s DA under the bus. It’s a damn mess.
- tptacek 5y ago
  Homicides "skyrocketed" (if that's the word we're going to use) everywhere, not just in jurisdictions with progressive prosecutors. Your argument plainly attributes a cause to the uptick in crime that cannot in fact be the cause. I mostly agree with your overall sentiment, but you got over your skis when you attempted to blame crime on protesters.
  - rayiner 5y ago
    I’m not blaming the progressive prosecutors—I’m listing them as a casualty of what happened. I do blame the rioting for the increase in homicides.

44 points by t0bia_s 5y ago

I think the class warfare aspect of this stuff isn't discussed enough. People also want to differentiate themselves from other classes in some way. These days everyone has money and owns the latest iPhone and can afford nice clothes, so it is a lot harder than it used to be. This is why the concept of "upper class ideas" has surfaced. It is important that these ideas be strange enough that someone from the working class would never except them.

evocatus 5y ago

> No one actually has to do anything. Virtue comes from mere words or even from silently held beliefs. There was a time in the distant past when people thought you could only be virtuous by doing things: by helping the blind man across the road; looking after your elderly parents instead of dumping them in a home; staying in a not-wholly-perfect marriage for the sake of the children. These things involve effort and self-sacrifice. That sounds hard! Much more convenient to achieve virtue by expressing hatred of those who think the health service could be improved by introducing competition. Here's an experiment - the next time you're out (if you still do that), take a look around and see how many people are wearing masks. Of that sample, how many of them have long hair? The thing that typifies white liberals most to me is their desire to be adorned with an aura of virtue while still doing the absolute bare minimum in order to be seen as such. Conspicuous displays such as mask wearing are low-effort, low-cost, require little to no compromise or change in one's lifestyle and behavior, and signal to fellow whites or allied tribespeople that you are on the same side. But when it comes to making an actual sacrifice - not even a significant one, I would posit! - suddenly all those lambasting the "alt right" are nowhere to be found. Short hair, fades, crew cuts abound - what happened? Weren't we just shaming our neighbors on social media for wanting to get haircuts? For having outdoor barbecues in the park? Where were you, when society called for your sacrifice? At the barber's, it seems. Now think - if there are this many people willing to skirt quarantine and stay-at-home orders while making outward displays of conformity... how many more of these self-proclaimed progressives actually secretly harbor racist beliefs while still reciting the common refrains of diversity and inclusion? I've developed tactics for unmasking the fakers and pretend-quarantiners. I am working to develop social technologies to unmask the pretend anti-racists now.

Jordrok 5y ago
> displays such as mask wearing are low-effort, low-cost, require little to no compromise or change in one's lifestyle and behavior If only we could have convinced more of the rabid anti-maskers of this. Sadly they were too busy virtue-signalling about how the tyrannical government was stripping away their essential liberties.
- evocatus 5y ago
  Of course. The problem doesn't (in fact, never) lies with you - it's always the _others_ who are incapable of practicing virtuous acts that are at fault.
  - Jordrok 5y ago
    You sure are making a lot of assumptions about me. I'm not even sure what the problem you're referring to here is. I was just impressed by what a concise, convincing argument in favor of masks you inadvertently made!
    - evocatus 5y ago
      - revolvingocelot 5y ago
        >>>>>I've developed tactics for unmasking the fakers and pretend-quarantiners. I am working to develop social technologies to unmask the pretend anti-racists now >I suppose that self-reflection is too much to ask for these days, when we can simply externalize our fears and moral failings unto other groups of people Self-reflection advocate, reflect thyself
        evocatus 5y ago
        [flagged]

8note 5y ago

Virtue signalling is the silliest criticism I've heard of. It boils down to saying something is good because it's critics only dislike it because it makes them look good to criticise it. There's no affirmative arguments for the thing in question, and any argument about virtue signalling just says that society considers the alternative virtuous - an argument against your non-virtuous opinions

evocatus 5y ago
If you had read the article, you would have at least addressed their point that many people make ostentatious displays of virtue without actually doing a damn thing in the real world. It's the attempt to paint one's self with good deeds, without actually having done any, that is problematic. Perhaps you are experiencing white fragility from your worldview being questioned?

opensores 5y ago

I fully support the opposite to the current thing ( https://summit.news/2022/03/31/i-support-the-current-thing/ https://summit.news/2022/03/31/i-support-the-current-thing/ ) .

t0bia_s 5y ago
Support... You mean sharing on internet?

mr_toad 5y ago

> There was a time in the distant past when people thought you could only be virtuous by doing things: by helping the blind man across the road […] These things involve effort and self-sacrifice. Or if that was too much effort you could just show up at church and complain about the heathens and their wicked ways. Seems to me that what the author is saying is a new phenomenon is actually as old as civilisation.

rayiner 5y ago

Virtue signaling has real consequences because it typically involves majority groups parachuting into terrain about which they know nothing and using their disproportionate influence to distort conversations that are already happening in that space. I’m convinced that progressive virtue signaling in 2020 set the cause of police reform back a decade. Having lived in downtown Atlanta, Baltimore, and Wilmington, I knew that voters in those cities were skittish about crime. These are the moms who show up every year to vote in municipal elections. When Larry Hogan sent the Maryland national guard in to quell rioting in Baltimore after Freddie Gray’s death, his approval rating in the overwhelmingly Black and Democrat city shot up over 70%. Police reform only happens in these communities when voters feel their kids are safe. In the summer of 2020, however, you had people who had never paid any attention to policing or racial justice issues before egging on riots and amplifying some of the stupidest far left ideas. These were people who didn’t live in these communities, had no understanding of the politics in these cities, and had no skin in the game anyway. The result was predictable: homicides skyrocketed, citizens of these cities freaked out, and police budgets are bigger than ever. Atlanta’s previously popular mayor (who had never really supported defund or similar messaging but got painted as not doing enough in response to rising crime) bowed out and didn’t run for re-election. Progressive candidates got hammered in elections like in NYC. The mayor of SF is throwing the city’s DA under the bus. It’s a damn mess.

tptacek 5y ago
Homicides "skyrocketed" (if that's the word we're going to use) everywhere, not just in jurisdictions with progressive prosecutors. Your argument plainly attributes a cause to the uptick in crime that cannot in fact be the cause. I mostly agree with your overall sentiment, but you got over your skis when you attempted to blame crime on protesters.
- rayiner 5y ago
  I’m not blaming the progressive prosecutors—I’m listing them as a casualty of what happened. I do blame the rioting for the increase in homicides.