8 ms·

This Twitter thread hits the nail on the head. Imagine this process in California, where just working with PG&E to get utilities to the site may be a six figure

by YATA0 4y ago

This Twitter thread hits the nail on the head. Imagine this process in California, where just working with PG&E to get utilities to the site may be a six figure adventure, then another $40-60k for an electrician to wire the house. That could be close to $200k for electrical alone. This could be for a 1,000 square foot shed in Oakland, not somewhere around Malibu. Add on the planning costs that the Twitter author goes on about, and your "affordable housing" is now near a million dollars. Is that really affordable?

cagenut 4y ago
for single family detached, no but that was never actually an economically viable product, so it makes sense to simply not expect it to work. for four to sixteen units that seems like it could be fine?
- YATA0 4y ago
  >but that was never actually an economically viable product It is the most economically viable product, which is why they dominate. >for four to sixteen units that seems like it could be fine? Those costs have also skyrocketed because now you have additional requirements like fire, egress, additional structural when going over two stories, etc. It's why most new apartments are "luxury" apartments. The costs have grown so out of control that the only way to break even is to make them outrageously priced.
  - occz 4y ago
    >It is the most economically viable product, which is why they dominate. Only because they are the only thing that most zoning codes in the U.S permit to build. With U.S zoning being what it is, there's literally no honest discussion to be made on what type of housing is most economically viable.
    - nemo44x 4y ago
      I think it’s quite viable if we look back to when it started. Back then hones we’re 800sq feet. Even 100 years ago an average home was about there. Today they are 2400 so feet on average. So if we go back to smaller places it’s viable. The only reason it’s not viable in places like Europe is because there are so many people in a small space. In the USA we could get adequate population density with 1200 sq foot homes and 1/8 acre plots.
      - kaibee 4y ago
        The land has gotten so expensive that the kind of people who can afford a SFH lot for their personal use, not to become a duplex or quadplex or whatever, can also afford to build a 2400 sqft house without it really mattering. Now a quadplex in the same spot could split that lot cost across 4 families.
        nemo44x 4y ago
        Depends where you are. In most places land is quite cheap.
        dchftcs 4y ago
        In places where land is cheap, infrastructure is expensive. Roads, electricity, water, sewers, internet. Higher commute cost is also a cost in productivity.
        YATA0 4y ago
        This is often touted, but I just doubt that electricity, water, and sewers are more expensive outside of the city. My father managed several factories in the LA area. Upgrading the electrical for new equipment in the close to downtown factory was going to cost something like a 6 to 7 figure sum. The factory in the boondocks upgrade was a quarter of the price.
        dchftcs 4y ago
  - Schroedingersat 4y ago
    > It is the most economically viable product, which is why they dominate. It's the only legal product. Very different. If you ban shoes that aren't made of gold, everyone is going to have terrible, expensive shoes. This would not be evidence that gold shoes were economically viable. Especially if every locale that adopted this rule was deeply in debt.
    - xienze 4y ago
      > It's the only legal product. Where’d this nonsense that the only thing you can build in the US is SFH come from? All over the US, in the same areas where there are SFH, there are apartment complexes, condos, and townhouses. The reason there’s so much SFH in the US is because, believe it or not, many people prefer living in a detached home with some semblance of a yard.
      - bombcar 4y ago
        It’s also the single easiest thing to get loans on, subsidized by the government. I walk into the bank and permit office for a loan to build a single family, and they barely even wake up before shoving the money at me. If I dare to go above a duplex, all hell breaks loose.
      - scythe 4y ago
        >Where’d this nonsense that the only thing you can build in the US is SFH come from? All over the US, in the same areas where there are SFH, there are apartment complexes, condos, and townhouses. Because it's very often true. Many neighborhoods that have apartments and townhomes mixed with SFH are full of grandfathered-in buildings that would be illegal to build under current zoning codes, due to setback/lot-fill/height/unit-count requirements etc. In fact, one reform idea I'm particularly fond of is allowing (e.g. at state level) any property to be rebuilt to the existing use (so that people aren't living in decaying, unhealthy buildings).
- sethammons 4y ago
  > but that was never actually an economically viable product There are clearly lots of these buildings. And have been for decades. It may not work "forever" but it has worked. Your argument reminds me of the economist who steps over the $100 bill on the ground since it couldn't possibly be there because if it was, someone would have picked it up by now.
virtualwhys 4y ago
> $40-60k for an electrician to wire the house. Think I'm in the wrong profession, what on earth does a Californian electrician make per year? At that rate I'd guess 500K+
- giantg2 4y ago
  Many of the trades can make good money. Especially in areas that forbid owners to work on their own homes, even to replace an existing water heater (like NYC).
  - vasco 4y ago
    How would they know?
    - tehlike 4y ago
      They don't, but the moment you need real permits or need to refi etc they might ask for and enforce permits.
      - gorbachev 4y ago
        Try buying or selling a house with unlicensed "modifications". It's an interesting exercise.
        giantg2 4y ago
        Very true. Depending on the modifications (like electrical), insurance could deny claims if they find unapproved/unpermitted work, even if it wasn't the cause, or the cause was unknown (depends on the policy).
        sokoloff 4y ago
        Around here, if you don’t want to buy a house with un-permitted work, it’s no problem; there’s another buyer standing right behind you (often literally) who will.
vbezhenar 4y ago
I can build the entire house with everything included. And not from those pesky woodsticks, but from a real concrete and bricks. For around $40k. Something in US is seriously wrong. I understand that labour cost difference is huge, but it can’t be the only factor.
- YATA0 4y ago
  Where do you live? $40k in concrete will get you your concrete driveway in California.
  - zip1234 4y ago
    $4000 for the concrete and $36000 for everything else.
  - pas 4y ago
    Kazakhstan https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30804120 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30804120
    - bombcar 4y ago
      A cinder block in the US is almost $2 - let’s assume on discount you can get it for $1. Still expensive. Here’s the cheapest kit at Menards if you’d like to compare: 29551 - Tahoe Cabin Material List at Menards https://www.menards.com/main/p-1569392867885.htm https://www.menards.com/main/p-1569392867885.htm And that’s materials only. And would be considered quite small by US standards. But hey 11% rebate.
      - unnouinceput 4y ago
        And that's why you pour the concrete directly into walls with rebars inside. Much stronger than cinder blocks and 10 times cheaper. But hey, nobody wants to actually do quality work, let's just fuck around with lego.
        4y ago

by YATA0 4y ago

cagenut 4y ago

for single family detached, no but that was never actually an economically viable product, so it makes sense to simply not expect it to work. for four to sixteen units that seems like it could be fine?

YATA0 4y ago
>but that was never actually an economically viable product It is the most economically viable product, which is why they dominate. >for four to sixteen units that seems like it could be fine? Those costs have also skyrocketed because now you have additional requirements like fire, egress, additional structural when going over two stories, etc. It's why most new apartments are "luxury" apartments. The costs have grown so out of control that the only way to break even is to make them outrageously priced.
- occz 4y ago
  >It is the most economically viable product, which is why they dominate. Only because they are the only thing that most zoning codes in the U.S permit to build. With U.S zoning being what it is, there's literally no honest discussion to be made on what type of housing is most economically viable.
  - nemo44x 4y ago
    I think it’s quite viable if we look back to when it started. Back then hones we’re 800sq feet. Even 100 years ago an average home was about there. Today they are 2400 so feet on average. So if we go back to smaller places it’s viable. The only reason it’s not viable in places like Europe is because there are so many people in a small space. In the USA we could get adequate population density with 1200 sq foot homes and 1/8 acre plots.
    - kaibee 4y ago
      The land has gotten so expensive that the kind of people who can afford a SFH lot for their personal use, not to become a duplex or quadplex or whatever, can also afford to build a 2400 sqft house without it really mattering. Now a quadplex in the same spot could split that lot cost across 4 families.
      - nemo44x 4y ago
        Depends where you are. In most places land is quite cheap.
        dchftcs 4y ago
        In places where land is cheap, infrastructure is expensive. Roads, electricity, water, sewers, internet. Higher commute cost is also a cost in productivity.
        YATA0 4y ago
        This is often touted, but I just doubt that electricity, water, and sewers are more expensive outside of the city. My father managed several factories in the LA area. Upgrading the electrical for new equipment in the close to downtown factory was going to cost something like a 6 to 7 figure sum. The factory in the boondocks upgrade was a quarter of the price.
        dchftcs 4y ago
- Schroedingersat 4y ago
  > It is the most economically viable product, which is why they dominate. It's the only legal product. Very different. If you ban shoes that aren't made of gold, everyone is going to have terrible, expensive shoes. This would not be evidence that gold shoes were economically viable. Especially if every locale that adopted this rule was deeply in debt.
  - xienze 4y ago
    > It's the only legal product. Where’d this nonsense that the only thing you can build in the US is SFH come from? All over the US, in the same areas where there are SFH, there are apartment complexes, condos, and townhouses. The reason there’s so much SFH in the US is because, believe it or not, many people prefer living in a detached home with some semblance of a yard.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      It’s also the single easiest thing to get loans on, subsidized by the government. I walk into the bank and permit office for a loan to build a single family, and they barely even wake up before shoving the money at me. If I dare to go above a duplex, all hell breaks loose.
    - scythe 4y ago
      >Where’d this nonsense that the only thing you can build in the US is SFH come from? All over the US, in the same areas where there are SFH, there are apartment complexes, condos, and townhouses. Because it's very often true. Many neighborhoods that have apartments and townhomes mixed with SFH are full of grandfathered-in buildings that would be illegal to build under current zoning codes, due to setback/lot-fill/height/unit-count requirements etc. In fact, one reform idea I'm particularly fond of is allowing (e.g. at state level) any property to be rebuilt to the existing use (so that people aren't living in decaying, unhealthy buildings).
sethammons 4y ago
> but that was never actually an economically viable product There are clearly lots of these buildings. And have been for decades. It may not work "forever" but it has worked. Your argument reminds me of the economist who steps over the $100 bill on the ground since it couldn't possibly be there because if it was, someone would have picked it up by now.

virtualwhys 4y ago

> $40-60k for an electrician to wire the house. Think I'm in the wrong profession, what on earth does a Californian electrician make per year? At that rate I'd guess 500K+

giantg2 4y ago
Many of the trades can make good money. Especially in areas that forbid owners to work on their own homes, even to replace an existing water heater (like NYC).
- vasco 4y ago
  How would they know?
  - tehlike 4y ago
    They don't, but the moment you need real permits or need to refi etc they might ask for and enforce permits.
    - gorbachev 4y ago
      Try buying or selling a house with unlicensed "modifications". It's an interesting exercise.
      - giantg2 4y ago
        Very true. Depending on the modifications (like electrical), insurance could deny claims if they find unapproved/unpermitted work, even if it wasn't the cause, or the cause was unknown (depends on the policy).
      - sokoloff 4y ago
        Around here, if you don’t want to buy a house with un-permitted work, it’s no problem; there’s another buyer standing right behind you (often literally) who will.

vbezhenar 4y ago

I can build the entire house with everything included. And not from those pesky woodsticks, but from a real concrete and bricks. For around $40k. Something in US is seriously wrong. I understand that labour cost difference is huge, but it can’t be the only factor.

YATA0 4y ago
Where do you live? $40k in concrete will get you your concrete driveway in California.
- zip1234 4y ago
  $4000 for the concrete and $36000 for everything else.
- pas 4y ago
  Kazakhstan https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30804120 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30804120
  - bombcar 4y ago
    A cinder block in the US is almost $2 - let’s assume on discount you can get it for $1. Still expensive. Here’s the cheapest kit at Menards if you’d like to compare: 29551 - Tahoe Cabin Material List at Menards https://www.menards.com/main/p-1569392867885.htm https://www.menards.com/main/p-1569392867885.htm And that’s materials only. And would be considered quite small by US standards. But hey 11% rebate.
    - unnouinceput 4y ago
      And that's why you pour the concrete directly into walls with rebars inside. Much stronger than cinder blocks and 10 times cheaper. But hey, nobody wants to actually do quality work, let's just fuck around with lego.
      - 4y ago