4 ms·

Which column identifies how hard people in any of these demographics worked to achieve this outcome?

car_analogy 5y ago
You want to attribute different outcomes to differences in behavior by race? In this case, you're saying that Jewish students are 11x more hard-working than Hispanic ones, and Asian students are 6x more hard-working than Black ones? Which other racial disparities do you attribute to differences in behavior?
- magicalist 5y ago
  You're the one who responded with the start of a refutation ("Do they?"). It's reasonable to expect you to actually make the argument.
  - car_analogy 5y ago
    I'm the only one that presented any data at all - the original comment simply asserted something was true, without backing it up in any way. It's reasonable to expect a refutation to contain at least some data, instead of dismissing what data we do have as not complete enough, and reverting back to the original fact-free assertion.
    - stormbrew 5y ago
      You can't just throw up a data table and go "ok I refuted it!" That's not an argument, it's just some contextless numbers. It is legitimately not clear to me in any way what you're trying to say or what it has to do with the thing you're replying to.
- AussieWog93 5y ago
  >In this case, you're saying that Jewish students are 11x more hard-working than Hispanic ones, and Asian students are 6x more hard-working than Black ones? Does Michael Phelps (23 Olympic gold medals) swim 23x faster than Mack Horton (1 Olympic gold medal)?
  - car_analogy 5y ago
    Fine. N-times more likely to be hard-working enough for the Ivy League.
    - AussieWog93 5y ago
      Internet arguments aside, the fact that certain cultural groups push their children to study hard (and also provide them with as many resources as possible to make sure their studies are fruitful) probably is a big contributor to the disparity illustrated in your table.
      - car_analogy 5y ago
        It does not seem to have helped non-Jewish whites any, compared to Blacks and Hispanics. I guess it's a very special kind of studiousness whites have - one that helps with SAT scores, but not Ivy League admissions: https://www.brookings.edu/research/race-gaps-in-sat-scores-highlight-inequality-and-hinder-upward-mobility/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/race-gaps-in-sat-scores-h...
        AussieWog93 5y ago
        Anecdotally, it absolutely has. The people I knew growing up (regardless of race) whose parents encouraged educational excellence were far more likely to attain it. (Looking at your link, it's important to note that it doesn't separate Jewish and non-Jewish Whites.)
        car_analogy 5y ago
        But it looks at all students (not only those that make it into the Ivies), so Jewish whites, that are only ~4% of all whites, have a minuscule effect on white SAT scores. Yet, for non-Jewish whites, comparatively higher SAT scores have not translated into higher Ivy enrollment.
        5y ago
- stormbrew 5y ago
  As a sibling reply said, I'm not making an argument. I'm asking for the relevance of your reply to the statement you replied to. I think there are a lot of confounding factors to the data you presented, so personally consider it to hold very little value on its own. You're the one who seems to draw meaning from it. So, what meaning do you draw from it? What explanation do you have for these discrepancies? How do they relate to what you replied to? In other words, show your work.
  - endominus 5y ago
    Don't be deliberately obtuse. Of course you were making an argument. You were making it sarcastically, to be sure, but it was still an argument dismissing the data presented as irrelevant because it doesn't purport to show the level of effort from the groups involved. And it's a spurious argument in any case, because the data presented still shows a major issue in the initial claim, which was that non-white students need to expend significantly more effort than white students to be accepted into the Ivy League, unless you happen to believe that (non-Jewish) white students for whatever reason expend much, much less effort than other demographics to join. If you think other factors are the cause of that, state them; don't just off-handedly and rudely dismiss people presenting valid contrary data.
    - stormbrew 5y ago
      > initial claim, which was that non-white students need to expend significantly more effort than white students to be accepted into the Ivy League You've added a whole bunch of words here that weren't in any claim of this thread. The person I was replying to is the one who brought students and school acceptance into it. I've double checked the whole thread to make sure, so if I missed it please point it out. The conversation above car_analogy's post was about business leadership. At any rate, while of course I'm being a little obtuse, I really do not know what car_analogy is driving at. I can speculate, but I suspect I'd be accused of being uncharitable if I said my speculation out loud. It's not up to me to make their argument for them, and they didn't even bother to make one. Anyways, > If you think other factors are the cause of that Fortunately, as I'm not the person who threw a snark bomb into the thread tied to a table of tenuously related data, it's not my job to interpret the data I don't think is significant to the argument at hand. If car_analogy wants to convince me of its relevance, they can say more than two words about it and then get defensive.
Mountain_Skies 5y ago
Meritocracy is bigoted or rational depending on which groups appear in a particular order. Pick one and be consistent with it. Swapping depending on what pecking order shows up is just more moral relativism to benefit one group while demonizing any others who ever try to do the same. Don't think it's not noticed and remembered for future reference.
throwawaydem45 5y ago
Why does the concept of "working hard" have to be a categorized by race when it is largely based on individual circumstances such as family income, parental upbringing, and immigration history? Someone who individually works hard that is a member of a group that is not considered to be hard working (or vice versa) would still be treated unfairly by this proposed system, making it no better than the status quo.
heavyset_go 5y ago
US immigration policy selects for high earners, the already wealthy and the highly skilled and educated. I think that can explain the demographics pretty well.

You want to attribute different outcomes to differences in behavior by race? In this case, you're saying that Jewish students are 11x more hard-working than Hispanic ones, and Asian students are 6x more hard-working than Black ones? Which other racial disparities do you attribute to differences in behavior?

magicalist 5y ago
You're the one who responded with the start of a refutation ("Do they?"). It's reasonable to expect you to actually make the argument.
- car_analogy 5y ago
  I'm the only one that presented any data at all - the original comment simply asserted something was true, without backing it up in any way. It's reasonable to expect a refutation to contain at least some data, instead of dismissing what data we do have as not complete enough, and reverting back to the original fact-free assertion.
  - stormbrew 5y ago
    You can't just throw up a data table and go "ok I refuted it!" That's not an argument, it's just some contextless numbers. It is legitimately not clear to me in any way what you're trying to say or what it has to do with the thing you're replying to.
AussieWog93 5y ago
>In this case, you're saying that Jewish students are 11x more hard-working than Hispanic ones, and Asian students are 6x more hard-working than Black ones? Does Michael Phelps (23 Olympic gold medals) swim 23x faster than Mack Horton (1 Olympic gold medal)?
- car_analogy 5y ago
  Fine. N-times more likely to be hard-working enough for the Ivy League.
  - AussieWog93 5y ago
    Internet arguments aside, the fact that certain cultural groups push their children to study hard (and also provide them with as many resources as possible to make sure their studies are fruitful) probably is a big contributor to the disparity illustrated in your table.
    - car_analogy 5y ago
      It does not seem to have helped non-Jewish whites any, compared to Blacks and Hispanics. I guess it's a very special kind of studiousness whites have - one that helps with SAT scores, but not Ivy League admissions: https://www.brookings.edu/research/race-gaps-in-sat-scores-highlight-inequality-and-hinder-upward-mobility/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/race-gaps-in-sat-scores-h...
      - AussieWog93 5y ago
        Anecdotally, it absolutely has. The people I knew growing up (regardless of race) whose parents encouraged educational excellence were far more likely to attain it. (Looking at your link, it's important to note that it doesn't separate Jewish and non-Jewish Whites.)
        car_analogy 5y ago
        But it looks at all students (not only those that make it into the Ivies), so Jewish whites, that are only ~4% of all whites, have a minuscule effect on white SAT scores. Yet, for non-Jewish whites, comparatively higher SAT scores have not translated into higher Ivy enrollment.
        5y ago
stormbrew 5y ago
As a sibling reply said, I'm not making an argument. I'm asking for the relevance of your reply to the statement you replied to. I think there are a lot of confounding factors to the data you presented, so personally consider it to hold very little value on its own. You're the one who seems to draw meaning from it. So, what meaning do you draw from it? What explanation do you have for these discrepancies? How do they relate to what you replied to? In other words, show your work.
- endominus 5y ago
  Don't be deliberately obtuse. Of course you were making an argument. You were making it sarcastically, to be sure, but it was still an argument dismissing the data presented as irrelevant because it doesn't purport to show the level of effort from the groups involved. And it's a spurious argument in any case, because the data presented still shows a major issue in the initial claim, which was that non-white students need to expend significantly more effort than white students to be accepted into the Ivy League, unless you happen to believe that (non-Jewish) white students for whatever reason expend much, much less effort than other demographics to join. If you think other factors are the cause of that, state them; don't just off-handedly and rudely dismiss people presenting valid contrary data.
  - stormbrew 5y ago
    > initial claim, which was that non-white students need to expend significantly more effort than white students to be accepted into the Ivy League You've added a whole bunch of words here that weren't in any claim of this thread. The person I was replying to is the one who brought students and school acceptance into it. I've double checked the whole thread to make sure, so if I missed it please point it out. The conversation above car_analogy's post was about business leadership. At any rate, while of course I'm being a little obtuse, I really do not know what car_analogy is driving at. I can speculate, but I suspect I'd be accused of being uncharitable if I said my speculation out loud. It's not up to me to make their argument for them, and they didn't even bother to make one. Anyways, > If you think other factors are the cause of that Fortunately, as I'm not the person who threw a snark bomb into the thread tied to a table of tenuously related data, it's not my job to interpret the data I don't think is significant to the argument at hand. If car_analogy wants to convince me of its relevance, they can say more than two words about it and then get defensive.

Mountain_Skies 5y ago

Meritocracy is bigoted or rational depending on which groups appear in a particular order. Pick one and be consistent with it. Swapping depending on what pecking order shows up is just more moral relativism to benefit one group while demonizing any others who ever try to do the same. Don't think it's not noticed and remembered for future reference.

throwawaydem45 5y ago

Why does the concept of "working hard" have to be a categorized by race when it is largely based on individual circumstances such as family income, parental upbringing, and immigration history? Someone who individually works hard that is a member of a group that is not considered to be hard working (or vice versa) would still be treated unfairly by this proposed system, making it no better than the status quo.

heavyset_go 5y ago

US immigration policy selects for high earners, the already wealthy and the highly skilled and educated. I think that can explain the demographics pretty well.