6 ms·

Auto dealer Napleton fined $10M for illegal fees and discrimination

57 points by zachshefska 5y ago

WaxProlix 5y ago
Good to see action that actually protects the interests of the little guy. Seems like a rarity these days - to the extent that I almost find the good news suspect - but I'll take the W and move on.
notimetorelax 5y ago
I wonder how this is not a felony charge?
- ghastmaster 5y ago
  It is a civil violation not a criminal violation.
  - ccleve 5y ago
    Fraud is criminal. They should have filed criminal charges.
    - ghastmaster 5y ago
      My original comment was misinformed. I did not realize the full scope of civil law. According to 815 ILCS 505 there are only three defined instances that warrant a felony charge and this is only if there is a previous conviction(misdemeanor). I'll leave it to you to show me where in the U.S.C. there is an opportunity to charge them with a felony.
      - ccleve 5y ago
        18 USC 1001, plus others. Mail fraud would be one vehicle. Also conspiracy.
        tptacek 5y ago
        Does the FTC accuse them of lying to federal authorities? That's what 18 USC 1001 is about. (It's Ken White's archetypical example of a bullshit statute, for what it's worth).
        ccleve 4y ago
        My error. I should have said 18 USC 1001 and the following entries all under Chapter 47. There's quite a few examples there. There are also a bunch under Chapter 63.
- ccleve 5y ago
  Exactly. Their revenues are approximately half a billion dollars. The 10 million-dollar fine will do nothing. A few days in jail for the senior people would have a much bigger effect.
- noasaservice 5y ago
  It's about rich people and C levels. Those people are nearly immune from criminal wrongdoings.
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    As long as they're screwing over regular folks. Mess with other rich people and all bets are off. E.g. Elizabeth Holmes.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  Civil enforcement action by federal agencies does not preclude criminal prosecution, which often takes longer when both occur for similar conduct. But, especially in cases where civil enforcement is on behalf of and recovers money for harmed individuals, it's often higher priority as well as being faster because their is a lower barrier to initiation.
ben1040 5y ago
>According to the complaint, the dealerships would often wait until the end of the hours-long negotiation process to sneak junk fees for add-on products and services into consumers’ purchase contracts, which often run as long as 60 pages. These junk fees were often added despite consumers specifically declining the add-ons or having confirmed prices that did not include the add-ons. In other cases, the consumers were falsely told the add-ons were free or were a requirement to purchase or finance their vehicle. The F&I office at a car dealership is just such a terrible place. Even if they're not outright trying to cheat you like this, they flood the zone with fast talk about options and numbers, with a healthy dollop of scare tactics to get you to buy "protection plans" you don't need. It's this bizarre mix of complimenting you and insulting your intelligence -- "you seem like a smart guy so I'm sure you're looking at the extended protection plan!" Everything else aside, buying a Tesla was refreshing because I was able to buy a new car on the internet like I'd buy a new blender on Amazon. No "the price is this if you finance and that if you don't," no push for warranties or prepaid service plans, and no obfuscation around finance rates and payments, etc. I ordered and paid for the car online, went to the store to unlock it with my phone, and drove off.
- SilasX 5y ago
  >The F&I office at a car dealership is just such a terrible place. Even if they're not outright trying to cheat you like this, Yeah, my reaction to that rap sheet was, "wait, that's illegal and actually enforced"? Um FTC, you've got a realllllly long list ahead of you. (Not that it's a bad thing to actually enforce this stuff.)
- TheJoeMan 5y ago
  These ads for AutoTrader are so funny though because it's "we don't add hidden fees" instead it's "we bought Kelly Blue book so now our prices seem to be fair but are probably the same $2k higher anyways". Glass prison or dirty prison? I suppose it depends on one's confidence in wading through the scammers but getting a better deal. Find cars that have been on the lot almost 30 days - they need to dump them before the dealer has to pay the bank.
- to11mtm 5y ago
  > F&I office NGL I actually laughed at the last one. It wasn't intentional, just as they made a specific comment about part of the drivetrain, I couldn't take them seriously anymore. They didn't really know what to do about that, which helped things out. > Everything else aside, buying a Tesla was refreshing because I was able to buy a new car on the internet like I'd buy a new blender on Amazon. Saturn did this. I think Scion did too, but could be wrong on that. My first 2 car purchase experience were at Saturn dealerships and TBF it left me ill-prepared for the 'typical' dealership experience. I will say that Truecar was pretty helpful in purchasing one of my cars; at the time I wound up getting invoice on a custom order without a bit of haggling about price. They did do the F&I bit but honestly it was fairly low pressure, (helped it was late in the day and the end of the month so they wanted it on the books.) My last purchase, I was referred by a friend, the salesfolks were up front and didn't upcharge. Yeah they did the F&I thing but were otherwise as close to the Saturn experience as I ever could have wanted. > with a healthy dollop of scare tactics to get you to buy "protection plans" you don't need. Some of them are kinda useful, but case dependent. - My WRX, I opted for the special windshield coat due to my work route at the time being -terrible- for windshields (I went through 2 in one year on my previous car...) And sure enough that crap worked. Between coating applications you could see the dimples. I also opted for Rim protection on that car. In my case it paid for itself, because #PureMichigan - I've -never- opted for an enhanced warranty. I typically take the cost of replacing the most expensive component that could fail within 5 years (and/or the mileage I'd expect to drive in that time) and not be covered within the provided warranties, and compare to what they want for an extended plan. It's almost never worth doing. > "the price is this if you finance and that if you don't," Finance/incentives are weird on the surface, but If you think about 'X$ cash back OR Y% APR through <financing arm>' (where Y is better-ish than common rate,) It's really just buying off the extra interest, like points on a mortgage. Depending on where your credit is at, that financing-arm option may be a better one than others anyway (always shop around though.)
rkuester 5y ago
These guys screwed me over in exactly this way when I bought a car from them three years ago. I raised hell when the deal I was asked to sign was for ~$2k more than we negotiated, but they wouldn’t budge. I should have walked away, but it’s hard when they spring it on you at the last second after you’ve spent hours getting to that point. Before I left their lot, I pulled the license plate frames with their name off the car and made a show of throwing them in showroom trash can. I told them they had sold a car, but I would forever tell everyone I know how shady they were. I’m happy to see this.
- ourmandave 5y ago
  The $10M fine is going directly to their victims. Maybe you can get part of it.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  You will want to contact the FTC Consumer Response Center (877-382-4357) to receive information for applying for restitution as part of this action.
  - rkuester 5y ago
    Thanks for the heads-up!
- zachshefska 5y ago
  I'm sorry you had that experience. I've helped dozens of people buy cars from them and they are notorious for this. It's a shame, most dealers do this crap. It's ridiculous.
- ahmedalsudani 5y ago
  +1 they literally did the exact same thing to me a few months back. I'm still trying to get my money back from them.
kcb 5y ago
Buy a Tesla. Its the only way to put a stop to this.
- longtimelistnr 5y ago
  No it’s not, and I’d actively encourage not buying a Tesla
  - kcb 5y ago
    Then continue the fever dream nightmare that is the car dealership.
    - rootusrootus 5y ago
      Walk into a dealer and say "I will pay that price on the window, but on the condition you won't even try to upsell me in F&I." Aside from a minority of shady dealers, most regular car dealers will smile sweetly and tell you where to sign and who to make out the check to. Tesla just formalizes this by forbidding negotiation. Some people like that. But historically people like to negotiate on big purchases. It's a game, how close to invoice can you get, etc. Can't really have it both ways. And frankly, most people like to pick from inventory, too, and have options. Tesla doesn't carry inventory nor do they really have much in the way of options. They're catering to a niche. People who are okay with a limited selection and are willing to wait.
      - shiftpgdn 5y ago
        That is such a naive take. If you promise to pay MSRP they’re going to do everything possible to take you as a mark. No honor amongst thieves. Buy a Tesla.
        rootusrootus 5y ago
        LOL. I work with dealers as part of my job. They're just going to sell you what you want. The easiest marks are the folks who think they know how to negotiate. If you are straightforward and you follow through, they aren't going to screw around trying to get another few bucks, they're going to take the sale. Don't just go make Elon richer.
ourmandave 5y ago
What's sad is their Better Business Bureau rating is A+. The customer review rating however is 1.22 out of 5. https://www.bbb.org/us/il/oakbrook-terrace/profile/new-car-dealers/napleton-automotive-group-0654-16446 https://www.bbb.org/us/il/oakbrook-terrace/profile/new-car-d...
- lordofgibbons 5y ago
  The BBB is a for profit company who's customers are businesses not consumers so I'm not surprised by this rating.
- function_seven 5y ago
  Serious question: Was the BBB always a joke? I remember 30 years ago it was generally regarded as a trusted and neutral entity. Much like Consumer Reports still is. (Yeah, people have their quibbles with CR’s methodologies and verdicts, but I don't see anyone question their integrity) But now I wonder if we (or just I?) were all just too unsophisticated to see that BBB had been captured by the businesses they purport to review.
  - kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
    They've always been the OG Yelp protection racket.
zachshefska 5y ago
OP here: I run a popular youtube channel helping people get fair car deals (search YAA). We are building a crowdsourced database of reviews to find dealers who are doing this type of stuff: https://joinyaa.com/car-dealer-reviews/results/ https://joinyaa.com/car-dealer-reviews/results/
- ahmedalsudani 5y ago
  Thank you OP. Wish I had found you earlier this year before buying a car from them!

57 points by zachshefska 5y ago

Good to see action that actually protects the interests of the little guy. Seems like a rarity these days - to the extent that I almost find the good news suspect - but I'll take the W and move on.

notimetorelax 5y ago

I wonder how this is not a felony charge?

ghastmaster 5y ago
It is a civil violation not a criminal violation.
- ccleve 5y ago
  Fraud is criminal. They should have filed criminal charges.
  - ghastmaster 5y ago
    My original comment was misinformed. I did not realize the full scope of civil law. According to 815 ILCS 505 there are only three defined instances that warrant a felony charge and this is only if there is a previous conviction(misdemeanor). I'll leave it to you to show me where in the U.S.C. there is an opportunity to charge them with a felony.
    - ccleve 5y ago
      18 USC 1001, plus others. Mail fraud would be one vehicle. Also conspiracy.
      - tptacek 5y ago
        Does the FTC accuse them of lying to federal authorities? That's what 18 USC 1001 is about. (It's Ken White's archetypical example of a bullshit statute, for what it's worth).
        ccleve 4y ago
        My error. I should have said 18 USC 1001 and the following entries all under Chapter 47. There's quite a few examples there. There are also a bunch under Chapter 63.
ccleve 5y ago
Exactly. Their revenues are approximately half a billion dollars. The 10 million-dollar fine will do nothing. A few days in jail for the senior people would have a much bigger effect.
noasaservice 5y ago
It's about rich people and C levels. Those people are nearly immune from criminal wrongdoings.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  As long as they're screwing over regular folks. Mess with other rich people and all bets are off. E.g. Elizabeth Holmes.
dragonwriter 4y ago
Civil enforcement action by federal agencies does not preclude criminal prosecution, which often takes longer when both occur for similar conduct. But, especially in cases where civil enforcement is on behalf of and recovers money for harmed individuals, it's often higher priority as well as being faster because their is a lower barrier to initiation.

ben1040 5y ago

>According to the complaint, the dealerships would often wait until the end of the hours-long negotiation process to sneak junk fees for add-on products and services into consumers’ purchase contracts, which often run as long as 60 pages. These junk fees were often added despite consumers specifically declining the add-ons or having confirmed prices that did not include the add-ons. In other cases, the consumers were falsely told the add-ons were free or were a requirement to purchase or finance their vehicle. The F&I office at a car dealership is just such a terrible place. Even if they're not outright trying to cheat you like this, they flood the zone with fast talk about options and numbers, with a healthy dollop of scare tactics to get you to buy "protection plans" you don't need. It's this bizarre mix of complimenting you and insulting your intelligence -- "you seem like a smart guy so I'm sure you're looking at the extended protection plan!" Everything else aside, buying a Tesla was refreshing because I was able to buy a new car on the internet like I'd buy a new blender on Amazon. No "the price is this if you finance and that if you don't," no push for warranties or prepaid service plans, and no obfuscation around finance rates and payments, etc. I ordered and paid for the car online, went to the store to unlock it with my phone, and drove off.

SilasX 5y ago
>The F&I office at a car dealership is just such a terrible place. Even if they're not outright trying to cheat you like this, Yeah, my reaction to that rap sheet was, "wait, that's illegal and actually enforced"? Um FTC, you've got a realllllly long list ahead of you. (Not that it's a bad thing to actually enforce this stuff.)
TheJoeMan 5y ago
These ads for AutoTrader are so funny though because it's "we don't add hidden fees" instead it's "we bought Kelly Blue book so now our prices seem to be fair but are probably the same $2k higher anyways". Glass prison or dirty prison? I suppose it depends on one's confidence in wading through the scammers but getting a better deal. Find cars that have been on the lot almost 30 days - they need to dump them before the dealer has to pay the bank.
to11mtm 5y ago
> F&I office NGL I actually laughed at the last one. It wasn't intentional, just as they made a specific comment about part of the drivetrain, I couldn't take them seriously anymore. They didn't really know what to do about that, which helped things out. > Everything else aside, buying a Tesla was refreshing because I was able to buy a new car on the internet like I'd buy a new blender on Amazon. Saturn did this. I think Scion did too, but could be wrong on that. My first 2 car purchase experience were at Saturn dealerships and TBF it left me ill-prepared for the 'typical' dealership experience. I will say that Truecar was pretty helpful in purchasing one of my cars; at the time I wound up getting invoice on a custom order without a bit of haggling about price. They did do the F&I bit but honestly it was fairly low pressure, (helped it was late in the day and the end of the month so they wanted it on the books.) My last purchase, I was referred by a friend, the salesfolks were up front and didn't upcharge. Yeah they did the F&I thing but were otherwise as close to the Saturn experience as I ever could have wanted. > with a healthy dollop of scare tactics to get you to buy "protection plans" you don't need. Some of them are kinda useful, but case dependent. - My WRX, I opted for the special windshield coat due to my work route at the time being -terrible- for windshields (I went through 2 in one year on my previous car...) And sure enough that crap worked. Between coating applications you could see the dimples. I also opted for Rim protection on that car. In my case it paid for itself, because #PureMichigan - I've -never- opted for an enhanced warranty. I typically take the cost of replacing the most expensive component that could fail within 5 years (and/or the mileage I'd expect to drive in that time) and not be covered within the provided warranties, and compare to what they want for an extended plan. It's almost never worth doing. > "the price is this if you finance and that if you don't," Finance/incentives are weird on the surface, but If you think about 'X$ cash back OR Y% APR through <financing arm>' (where Y is better-ish than common rate,) It's really just buying off the extra interest, like points on a mortgage. Depending on where your credit is at, that financing-arm option may be a better one than others anyway (always shop around though.)

rkuester 5y ago

These guys screwed me over in exactly this way when I bought a car from them three years ago. I raised hell when the deal I was asked to sign was for ~$2k more than we negotiated, but they wouldn’t budge. I should have walked away, but it’s hard when they spring it on you at the last second after you’ve spent hours getting to that point. Before I left their lot, I pulled the license plate frames with their name off the car and made a show of throwing them in showroom trash can. I told them they had sold a car, but I would forever tell everyone I know how shady they were. I’m happy to see this.

ourmandave 5y ago
The $10M fine is going directly to their victims. Maybe you can get part of it.
toomuchtodo 5y ago
You will want to contact the FTC Consumer Response Center (877-382-4357) to receive information for applying for restitution as part of this action.
- rkuester 5y ago
  Thanks for the heads-up!
zachshefska 5y ago
I'm sorry you had that experience. I've helped dozens of people buy cars from them and they are notorious for this. It's a shame, most dealers do this crap. It's ridiculous.
ahmedalsudani 5y ago
+1 they literally did the exact same thing to me a few months back. I'm still trying to get my money back from them.

kcb 5y ago

Buy a Tesla. Its the only way to put a stop to this.

longtimelistnr 5y ago
No it’s not, and I’d actively encourage not buying a Tesla
- kcb 5y ago
  Then continue the fever dream nightmare that is the car dealership.
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    Walk into a dealer and say "I will pay that price on the window, but on the condition you won't even try to upsell me in F&I." Aside from a minority of shady dealers, most regular car dealers will smile sweetly and tell you where to sign and who to make out the check to. Tesla just formalizes this by forbidding negotiation. Some people like that. But historically people like to negotiate on big purchases. It's a game, how close to invoice can you get, etc. Can't really have it both ways. And frankly, most people like to pick from inventory, too, and have options. Tesla doesn't carry inventory nor do they really have much in the way of options. They're catering to a niche. People who are okay with a limited selection and are willing to wait.
    - shiftpgdn 5y ago
      That is such a naive take. If you promise to pay MSRP they’re going to do everything possible to take you as a mark. No honor amongst thieves. Buy a Tesla.
      - rootusrootus 5y ago
        LOL. I work with dealers as part of my job. They're just going to sell you what you want. The easiest marks are the folks who think they know how to negotiate. If you are straightforward and you follow through, they aren't going to screw around trying to get another few bucks, they're going to take the sale. Don't just go make Elon richer.

ourmandave 5y ago

What's sad is their Better Business Bureau rating is A+. The customer review rating however is 1.22 out of 5. https://www.bbb.org/us/il/oakbrook-terrace/profile/new-car-dealers/napleton-automotive-group-0654-16446 https://www.bbb.org/us/il/oakbrook-terrace/profile/new-car-d...

lordofgibbons 5y ago
The BBB is a for profit company who's customers are businesses not consumers so I'm not surprised by this rating.
function_seven 5y ago
Serious question: Was the BBB always a joke? I remember 30 years ago it was generally regarded as a trusted and neutral entity. Much like Consumer Reports still is. (Yeah, people have their quibbles with CR’s methodologies and verdicts, but I don't see anyone question their integrity) But now I wonder if we (or just I?) were all just too unsophisticated to see that BBB had been captured by the businesses they purport to review.
- kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
  They've always been the OG Yelp protection racket.

zachshefska 5y ago

OP here: I run a popular youtube channel helping people get fair car deals (search YAA). We are building a crowdsourced database of reviews to find dealers who are doing this type of stuff: https://joinyaa.com/car-dealer-reviews/results/ https://joinyaa.com/car-dealer-reviews/results/

ahmedalsudani 5y ago
Thank you OP. Wish I had found you earlier this year before buying a car from them!