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> Because scientists work by aggressively cutting down bad ideas. The basic mindset calls for being efficient-and-ruthless in identifying-and-eliminating low-qu

by shkkmo 5y ago

> Because scientists work by aggressively cutting down bad ideas. The basic mindset calls for being efficient-and-ruthless in identifying-and-eliminating low-quality thinking. Generally, people actually doing the science haven't been condescending, in my experience. You can challenge incorrectness without condescension (and its usually more effective that way.) The condescension comes from the way a certain type of science communicator decides to use the name and gravitas of science to belittle those who don't agree.

_Nat_ 5y ago
> You can challenge incorrectness without condescension (and its usually more effective that way.) In short bursts, sure. Sorta like, if someone believes that Elvis is secretly a lizard-man who is now pretending to be President Biden, then that could be responded to in simple, polite terms that aren't immediately condescending. However, the scientific-community, literature, etc., would tend to be cumulatively dismissive and condescending toward the idea, failing to take it seriously. For example, such an idea wouldn't tend to get a mention in every article that mentions President Biden, even if proponents of the idea might continue to hold a strong interest in that belief. This might lead to folks who'd hold such a belief continuing to find the literature dismissive and condescending toward their beliefs, even if no-one overtly makes rude comments on the topic. But even avoiding rudeness is unrealistic. For example, someone who believes that Elvis is a lizard-man who is now pretending to be President Biden, and they start advertising their idea everywhere -- say on Wikipedia-articles and in comment-sections of articles -- how does one respond to that? If they're treated politely and accepted, then everything gets bogged down with non-sense. Eventually, everything's covered with conspiracy-theories about how President Biden's secretly a lizard-man, or a fish-man, or a real man pretending to be a lizard-man, or an alien pretending to be an AI pretending to be a fish, etc., and then everything's just noise.
- shkkmo 5y ago
  > Sorta like, if someone believes that Elvis is secretly a lizard-man who is now pretending to be President Biden, then that could be responded to in simple, polite terms that aren't immediately condescending. You JUST did the exact thing I am talking about. You equated having an incorrect understanding of science with believing Biden is a lizard man Elvis. You aren't conducting science, explaining science, or even challenging incorrect scientific beliefs. You are using science as a bludgeon to demean people you don't agree with. It is OK to be wrong and it is OK to entertain incorrect ideas. These are critical parts of learning. It is also OK to say when things are wrong. Mocking people for being wrong is alienating and counter productive.
  - _Nat_ 5y ago
    > You JUST did the exact thing I am talking about. You equated having an incorrect understanding of science with believing Biden is a lizard man Elvis. I was concerned that, if I selected a common conspiracy-theory, folks who believe in it might feel attacked. So I picked a made-up conspiracy-theory that I didn't think anyone would feel emotionally invested in.
    - shkkmo 5y ago
      > So I picked a made-up conspiracy-theory that I didn't think anyone would feel emotionally invested in. You picked one that was absurd but yet similar enough to existing beliefs to mock them with that absurdity. This is exactly the kind of 'othering' that the article pushes back against.
      - _Nat_ 5y ago
        The principle of "assume good faith" is essential to even basic conversation. In its absence, intelligent exchanges are fundamentally impossible. Which may be the case here?
mlazos 5y ago
I don’t know about you, but I imagine someone who after googling a couple questions about my field and holding up the results as fact would be pretty annoying to someone like me who has spent 6+ years studying said field. New ideas are great, but when the most basic knee-jerk ideas proposed without any self-doubt expect to be treated as well as replicated experiments, it’s nothing short of complete idiocy.

by shkkmo 5y ago

_Nat_ 5y ago

> You can challenge incorrectness without condescension (and its usually more effective that way.) In short bursts, sure. Sorta like, if someone believes that Elvis is secretly a lizard-man who is now pretending to be President Biden, then that could be responded to in simple, polite terms that aren't immediately condescending. However, the scientific-community, literature, etc., would tend to be cumulatively dismissive and condescending toward the idea, failing to take it seriously. For example, such an idea wouldn't tend to get a mention in every article that mentions President Biden, even if proponents of the idea might continue to hold a strong interest in that belief. This might lead to folks who'd hold such a belief continuing to find the literature dismissive and condescending toward their beliefs, even if no-one overtly makes rude comments on the topic. But even avoiding rudeness is unrealistic. For example, someone who believes that Elvis is a lizard-man who is now pretending to be President Biden, and they start advertising their idea everywhere -- say on Wikipedia-articles and in comment-sections of articles -- how does one respond to that? If they're treated politely and accepted, then everything gets bogged down with non-sense. Eventually, everything's covered with conspiracy-theories about how President Biden's secretly a lizard-man, or a fish-man, or a real man pretending to be a lizard-man, or an alien pretending to be an AI pretending to be a fish, etc., and then everything's just noise.

shkkmo 5y ago
> Sorta like, if someone believes that Elvis is secretly a lizard-man who is now pretending to be President Biden, then that could be responded to in simple, polite terms that aren't immediately condescending. You JUST did the exact thing I am talking about. You equated having an incorrect understanding of science with believing Biden is a lizard man Elvis. You aren't conducting science, explaining science, or even challenging incorrect scientific beliefs. You are using science as a bludgeon to demean people you don't agree with. It is OK to be wrong and it is OK to entertain incorrect ideas. These are critical parts of learning. It is also OK to say when things are wrong. Mocking people for being wrong is alienating and counter productive.
- _Nat_ 5y ago
  > You JUST did the exact thing I am talking about. You equated having an incorrect understanding of science with believing Biden is a lizard man Elvis. I was concerned that, if I selected a common conspiracy-theory, folks who believe in it might feel attacked. So I picked a made-up conspiracy-theory that I didn't think anyone would feel emotionally invested in.
  - shkkmo 5y ago
    > So I picked a made-up conspiracy-theory that I didn't think anyone would feel emotionally invested in. You picked one that was absurd but yet similar enough to existing beliefs to mock them with that absurdity. This is exactly the kind of 'othering' that the article pushes back against.
    - _Nat_ 5y ago
      The principle of "assume good faith" is essential to even basic conversation. In its absence, intelligent exchanges are fundamentally impossible. Which may be the case here?

mlazos 5y ago

I don’t know about you, but I imagine someone who after googling a couple questions about my field and holding up the results as fact would be pretty annoying to someone like me who has spent 6+ years studying said field. New ideas are great, but when the most basic knee-jerk ideas proposed without any self-doubt expect to be treated as well as replicated experiments, it’s nothing short of complete idiocy.