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Yanukovich was democratically elected as well, but, of course, you are using the adjective only when referring to Zelensky. The fact that you don't like his pol

by ailef 5y ago

Yanukovich was democratically elected as well, but, of course, you are using the adjective only when referring to Zelensky. The fact that you don't like his policies doesn't make it less democratic.

XorNot 5y ago
Just glossing over the "shooting protesters" part then? Nothing stopped him re-contesting the election. Given that he was removed parliamentary vote [1], then disavowed by his own party and then mysteriously enjoyed the assistance of Russian Spetsnaz before he somehow turning up in Moscow. But you know, apparently none of that counted as democracy - but, to be expected since you've just been parroting Putin propaganda. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#Parliamentary_vote https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#Parliamentar...
- klibertp 5y ago
  > Given that he was removed parliamentary vote [1] [...] But you know, apparently none of that counted as democracy The source you link says this: > The constitutionality of Yanukovych's removal from office has been questioned by constitutional experts.[192] According to Daisy Sindelar from Radio Free Europe, the impeachment may have not followed the procedure provided by the constitution: "[I]t is not clear that the hasty February 22 vote upholds constitutional guidelines, which call for a review of the case by Ukraine's Constitutional Court and a three-fourths majority vote by the Verkhovna Rada -- i.e., 338 lawmakers." The vote, as analyzed by Sindelar, had ten votes less than those required by the constitutional guidelines. However, Sindelar noted in the same article that, "That discrepancy may soon become irrelevant, with parliament expected to elect a new prime minister no later than February 24." The decision to remove Yanukovich was supported by 328 deputies.[b][191][194][19][195] > Although the legislative removal by an impeachment procedure would have lacked the number of votes required by Ukraine's constitution,[193] the resolution did not follow the impeachment procedure but instead established that Yanukovych "withdrew from his duties in an unconstitutional manner" and cited "circumstances of extreme urgency",[191][194] a situation for which there was no stipulation in the then-current Ukrainian constitution.[196] Yes, ignoring the procedures doesn't count as democracy. Popular support doesn't give you a right to ignore constitution. Just because you feel the other party is a bad guy - and he may well be - doesn't mean you can invent new laws in the spur of the moment.
  - XorNot 5y ago
    So where is the US interference? You were adamant it existed, but now your complaint is Ukranians didn't follow their constitution? Yanukovich was voted out and sought no petition with the Ukranian courts to resolve the issue? How are those rubles spending these days? Dead Ukranian civilian blood didn't lubricate them very well did they?
    - klibertp 5y ago
      > So where is the US interference? You were adamant it existed No, I wasn't? You're confusing me with another commenter, possibly? I just said that the protesters enjoyed the rhetorical support of foreign officials, which is definitely true because I witnessed it myself, living in Poland at the time and remember what Radek Sikorski was saying back then. I also added that they turned foreign embassy - Canadian, to be precise - into a temporary field hospital. I also mentioned that I read on the wiki that the protesters were supported financially by foreign capital, though I'm not sure if it's true or what form did it take. > but now your complaint is Ukranians didn't follow their constitution? Yes, exactly. It's not a rule of law if you don't follow the law. Simple as that. I'm not saying Yanukovych was a good guy, I'm saying that by jumping the gun and removing him in an unconstitutional way you played right into the hands of your adversaries. You shouldn't have done that - you should have followed the law to the letter. That's my opinion, you can disagree of course, but then I'd like to know what did you get out of that way of doing things, that you wouldn't get if the new elections were held a month later. > How are those rubles spending these days? Dead Ukranian civilian blood didn't lubricate them very well did they? What are you even talking about? Could you please calm down? I'm not your enemy, I'm not pro-russia, and I don't care what Ukrainians do in their own country. I'm doing my best to maintain neutral stance, even though I'm personally affected by the genocide perpetrated by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army under the ideology of Bandera. I'm willing to let it go - it was a long time ago, after all - and remain neutral, but you're certainly not helping me in that.
      - XorNot 5y ago
        There's exactly one government on earth currently invested in pushing the notion that Ukraine isn't a democracy, and boy it's been upset since their bought puppet they provided special forces protection and asylum too was ousted from power because his people didn't want to be sold out to Russia. And mysteriously your only argument is a talking point about how his removal wasn't democratic, speaking nothing of anything which happened since then.
myko 5y ago
Yanukovich was installed by Putin with the help of Paul Manafort. He lied to get elected and when he was found out he was forcibly thrown out of government. Had he fulfilled his campaign promises instead of working directly for Putin this would not have happened. Pointing to this overthrow is not valid as a condemnation against Ukrainian sovereignty & attempt to follow democratic ideals, it is confirmation of the nations strong desire for those things. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/paul-manafort-american-hustler/550925/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/paul-ma... https://time.com/5003623/paul-manafort-mueller-indictment-ukraine-russia/ https://time.com/5003623/paul-manafort-mueller-indictment-uk...

by ailef 5y ago

Yanukovich was democratically elected as well, but, of course, you are using the adjective only when referring to Zelensky. The fact that you don't like his policies doesn't make it less democratic.

XorNot 5y ago

Just glossing over the "shooting protesters" part then? Nothing stopped him re-contesting the election. Given that he was removed parliamentary vote [1], then disavowed by his own party and then mysteriously enjoyed the assistance of Russian Spetsnaz before he somehow turning up in Moscow. But you know, apparently none of that counted as democracy - but, to be expected since you've just been parroting Putin propaganda. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#Parliamentary_vote https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#Parliamentar...

klibertp 5y ago
> Given that he was removed parliamentary vote [1] [...] But you know, apparently none of that counted as democracy The source you link says this: > The constitutionality of Yanukovych's removal from office has been questioned by constitutional experts.[192] According to Daisy Sindelar from Radio Free Europe, the impeachment may have not followed the procedure provided by the constitution: "[I]t is not clear that the hasty February 22 vote upholds constitutional guidelines, which call for a review of the case by Ukraine's Constitutional Court and a three-fourths majority vote by the Verkhovna Rada -- i.e., 338 lawmakers." The vote, as analyzed by Sindelar, had ten votes less than those required by the constitutional guidelines. However, Sindelar noted in the same article that, "That discrepancy may soon become irrelevant, with parliament expected to elect a new prime minister no later than February 24." The decision to remove Yanukovich was supported by 328 deputies.[b][191][194][19][195] > Although the legislative removal by an impeachment procedure would have lacked the number of votes required by Ukraine's constitution,[193] the resolution did not follow the impeachment procedure but instead established that Yanukovych "withdrew from his duties in an unconstitutional manner" and cited "circumstances of extreme urgency",[191][194] a situation for which there was no stipulation in the then-current Ukrainian constitution.[196] Yes, ignoring the procedures doesn't count as democracy. Popular support doesn't give you a right to ignore constitution. Just because you feel the other party is a bad guy - and he may well be - doesn't mean you can invent new laws in the spur of the moment.
- XorNot 5y ago
  So where is the US interference? You were adamant it existed, but now your complaint is Ukranians didn't follow their constitution? Yanukovich was voted out and sought no petition with the Ukranian courts to resolve the issue? How are those rubles spending these days? Dead Ukranian civilian blood didn't lubricate them very well did they?
  - klibertp 5y ago
    > So where is the US interference? You were adamant it existed No, I wasn't? You're confusing me with another commenter, possibly? I just said that the protesters enjoyed the rhetorical support of foreign officials, which is definitely true because I witnessed it myself, living in Poland at the time and remember what Radek Sikorski was saying back then. I also added that they turned foreign embassy - Canadian, to be precise - into a temporary field hospital. I also mentioned that I read on the wiki that the protesters were supported financially by foreign capital, though I'm not sure if it's true or what form did it take. > but now your complaint is Ukranians didn't follow their constitution? Yes, exactly. It's not a rule of law if you don't follow the law. Simple as that. I'm not saying Yanukovych was a good guy, I'm saying that by jumping the gun and removing him in an unconstitutional way you played right into the hands of your adversaries. You shouldn't have done that - you should have followed the law to the letter. That's my opinion, you can disagree of course, but then I'd like to know what did you get out of that way of doing things, that you wouldn't get if the new elections were held a month later. > How are those rubles spending these days? Dead Ukranian civilian blood didn't lubricate them very well did they? What are you even talking about? Could you please calm down? I'm not your enemy, I'm not pro-russia, and I don't care what Ukrainians do in their own country. I'm doing my best to maintain neutral stance, even though I'm personally affected by the genocide perpetrated by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army under the ideology of Bandera. I'm willing to let it go - it was a long time ago, after all - and remain neutral, but you're certainly not helping me in that.
    - XorNot 5y ago
      There's exactly one government on earth currently invested in pushing the notion that Ukraine isn't a democracy, and boy it's been upset since their bought puppet they provided special forces protection and asylum too was ousted from power because his people didn't want to be sold out to Russia. And mysteriously your only argument is a talking point about how his removal wasn't democratic, speaking nothing of anything which happened since then.

myko 5y ago

Yanukovich was installed by Putin with the help of Paul Manafort. He lied to get elected and when he was found out he was forcibly thrown out of government. Had he fulfilled his campaign promises instead of working directly for Putin this would not have happened. Pointing to this overthrow is not valid as a condemnation against Ukrainian sovereignty & attempt to follow democratic ideals, it is confirmation of the nations strong desire for those things. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/paul-manafort-american-hustler/550925/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/paul-ma... https://time.com/5003623/paul-manafort-mueller-indictment-ukraine-russia/ https://time.com/5003623/paul-manafort-mueller-indictment-uk...