8 ms·

Web3 'contains the seeds of a dystopian nightmare'

verisimi 5y ago
I agree that there the seeds of dystopia there, in the guise of progress. Eg is decentralisation a universally good thing? You can also interpret it as a means for big corporations to shift the burden onto the devices of the people who use their services, thereby decreasing their costs at the cost of the consumer. Making you and your hardware a node in their network.
- feanaro 5y ago
  So don't use the corporation's network but build an open one?
jasfi 5y ago
The ideas in Web 3 are very diverse, and are frequently mixed with already established ways of thinking and doing business. People are trying to figure out what works and what doesn't. It's basically a melting pot of ideas. The best of what works will win. Note: I'm the founder of TradeCast. I'm mixing the crypto trading part with automated trading, but in a way that is transparent and gives users control: https://tradecast.one https://tradecast.one.
- orzig 5y ago
  I'm not 100% disagreement, but I'd love to see a little more evidence (or at least reasoning) for "The best of what works will win". To start, here's my counter-argument: We're almost exactly 6 years from the release of bitcoin, and it's still dominant by market cap. We either nailed it the first time or the best has not (yet?) won. We're 50 years into computing and the dominant operating systems are from the same companies that dominated ~40 years ago. Did we top out on ideas then?
  - jasfi 5y ago
    Web 3 is far bigger than Bitcoin alone. VC money is pouring into Web 3 companies, so I'd say we haven't seen too much of what's coming just yet. It's actually really interesting that you make a comparison to operating systems. I helped get ReactOS started in the late 90s, because Windows was so dominant and there was a tremendous lock-in effect because of the software and drivers that were Windows only. However I still think a clone was not the best direction (I left the project ages ago), and that interfaces to other OSs such as Linux are better. Although I didn't come to this conclusion immediately, mainly because driver APIs seemed difficult to abstract to another OS. That said, Linux has made tremendous strides and WINE has helped it along. With Web 3 you don't have that lock-in effect, so the ideas are flowing more freely. That's why I think Web 3 is different to the OS analogy.
  - i14 5y ago
    Well, getting people to change what they use takes time. And it’s hard to compete with big players.
  - onetokeoverthe 5y ago
- the-dude 5y ago
  Adding a disclaimer is common courtesy.
  - jasfi 5y ago
    What were you expecting exactly?
    - the-dude 5y ago
      I have misread your "For my part". Please accept my apology. I do feel it could be stated more explicit : I am the creator/founder/CEO of for example.
      - jasfi 5y ago
        No problem, I'll update my comment.
- jlgaddis 5y ago
  You certainly don't miss an opportunity to make a meaningless, no substance comment just so that you can spam a link to some "project" of yours, do you?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
shoulderfake 5y ago
jchw 5y ago
Personally, I think “Web3” will never come. It’s got as much usability issues as the Linux desktop with no obvious draw for as to why most people should care or work on it. It’s a nebulous term that encompasses a bunch of stuff nobody wanted without the blockchain, and I’m not sure why anyone would want it with the blockchain. Of course this could be a Hacker News Dropbox comment moment. And there’s always that quote “the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent.” Still, I don’t think the “metaverse” or non fungible tokens will have any long term relevance simply because nobody was asking for this crap to begin with. Like many crypto schemes, the majority of players are now in it to cash out, not because they believe in it.
- fartcannon 5y ago
  Without the pressure of the frankly outstanding Linux desktop, Microsoft and Apple would be renting your computer to you by the minute or some other coporate nightmare. So beyond even its true day to day usefulness, it's importance to your quality of life is likely immeasurable.
  - jchw 5y ago
    Maybe, dunno. I am a passionate Linux desktop user. I have the SwayWM configs to prove it. However, unless Apple and Microsoft really did decide to do that, I don’t see a huge likelihood that someone is gonna swoop in and start putting serious resources into fixing stuff. Stuff like Cairo being virtually unmaintained or Qt… well, being Qt and having about 5000 bugs. (Don’t kill me, I like Qt too, but it’s damn buggy.) The point was that the year of the Linux desktop never comes, and it probably never will. If it’s good enough to act as a counterbalance against dystopian outcomes, then fine. I don’t really see it, because I suspect most people don’t really have that much of a choice, for practical reasons, about the computing environments they’re beholden to.
    - XorNot 5y ago
      Linux desktop works well enough for the types of things "normal" people are allowed to do on corporate networks. Like, the ways it can break are no worse then the numerous utterly broken Windows things which Microsoft ships out of the box these days. The Linux desktop suffers from the reality that businesses don't care about their Windows licensing costs, AD admins are a dime a dozen, but an absolute ton of very specialized - different - pieces of enterprise software work on Windows but nowhere else. Of course this my slight bias from being a Cinnamon user, which delivers a quality useful experience - I'm bit more pessimistic the times I've had to deal with Gnome 3 default, which tries to innovate (and shouldn't - we don't need an "innovative" desktop - we need a rock-solid experience that says "what you know without ads or drama").
lngnmn2 5y ago
Web3 is a scam - a bunch of unnecessary redundant abstractions. Imagine your cells could pile up layers of abstract bullshit. Molecular biology has been "optimized" by evolution to stable forms which are necessary and sufficient, and this is the big fundamental lesson. One should remove crap, not pile it up
- onetokeoverthe 5y ago
sudden_dystopia 5y ago
I’m pretty critical of “web3” but some of these points are pretty weak: “ Decentralization Impossible to achieve, as shown by current crypto projects centering around certain (usually large) actors; Trust in code, not companies: the belief that a community’s smart contracts encode and enforce its rules We should all trust unknown developers why, exactly? Always using open and transparent code Doesn't stop monopolies forming, and relies on a small pool of people capable of assessing code;” Decentralization, hand waved to impossible. Maybe, but this seems especially worth trying. Unknown developers aren’t trustworthy but inexplicably known developers just are despite plenty of evidence indicating nobody is worthy of actual trust. Open source can only ever rely on a few people to review code whereas somehow enterprise code should just be blindly trusted even though it’s opaque and managed by still just a relative few people.
openfuture 5y ago
No shit. The whole thing is basically about improving the security of the current totalitarian nightmare (i.e. economic system based on a central currency model). Real change will require a rethink of our assumptions. This is something I spend every waking moment on and I am getting close to being able to explain how we get out of this mess but give me time.
- fennecfoxen 5y ago
  You’ll surely have to work on establishing the current system as dystopian.
  - openfuture 5y ago
    Look around. I'd rather be constructive and establish a way forward than joining the chorus of complaint.
chrisbrandow 5y ago
Every time I listen to web3 proponents explain how attaching smart contracts to things like music would work it just sounds like an exhausting nightmare.
- fennecfoxen 5y ago
  Trading songs on the blockchain sounds like a reasonable idea until you realize any MP3 player that would enforce ownership needs DRM now, which it must either enforce by downloading the blockchain periodically, or periodically talking to some untrustworthy music-industry server that purports to interpret the blockchain but could shut down instead.
  - coffeefirst 5y ago
    Yes, this is a terrible idea. I only recently escaped the last of the FairPlay DRM.
- 21723 5y ago
  Music and the arts are where I get worried, because I've seen a lot of good people get involved in NFTs. The regime we had beforehand wasn't working. Spotify royalties were pathetic. The interest in Web3, among artists, comes more from fear for the future than techie opportunism.
  - falcolas 5y ago
    Spotify royalties are pathetic because people don’t want to pay very much for music. Even without all the shitty middlemen taking huge slices of the pie, I’m paying less than $4 (family account) to play thousands of songs from hundreds of artists
przeor 5y ago
Web3 requires whole new mindset analogous to 100% electric cars. You can't find value in Tesla, if your mindset is still in 90' and there are no electric charges available. Web3 value proposition is more obvious for people outside west world (eg. Nigeria) and people from countires like USA will have hard time to figure out value, but it doesnt mean Web3 is a scam.There are many ppl calling electric cars a scam. It will take decades to realize on a mass world wide market value of Web3 for a common West/US citizen.
- timeon 5y ago
  But still it is hard to evaluate from your comment. Maybe we need more than one analogy.
  - przeor 5y ago
    In my opinion most general Problem that web3 is solving is related to coordination https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordination_failure_(economics) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordination_failure_(econom... citing: "Coordination failure can lead to an underemployment equilibrium.[3] " ... other problem worth mentioning is lack of trust and transparency. There are many more specific side-problems as well depending on the specific use case etc. in web3 projects
- onetokeoverthe 5y ago
benknight87 5y ago
The only thing that really seems to be true about all of this is Blockchain indeed is a huge innovation simply because of its ability to create decentralized trust. Full stop. Web3/crypto tech is currently going through the "Peak of Inflated Expectations" of the Gartner Hype Cycle, and once things settle down and get a little bit more boring, Blockchain applications will find their niche and prove their value in ways we didn't necessarily expect.
- labrador 5y ago
  This trust is still partial trust in the system. There are a lot more aspects of the system that need to be trusted with your money. The coders who maintain bitcoin, that the miners won't collude, that your wallet won't be drained by hackers and so on... I'd rather trust my money to an FDIC account. It far more likely I'll lose my Bitcoin through some crack in the system that the United States governement collapses and is unable to give me my money, and at that point, Bitcoin wouldn't help me either.
  - przeor 5y ago
    Historically, people lost more money in the past by trusting third parties/IOU than trusting Ethereum settling layer. Global trust network was not possible before blockchain tech happend. Whole Switzerland success is built on trust concept in the society. Trust is important.
- pg_bot 5y ago
  My general take has been that Blockchain is a genuine innovation, but one that is inferior to existing technologies in nearly every respect. It's going to be similar to the Wankel engine or the Tesla turbine historically. Yes it technically *works* but the disadvantages outweigh the benefits of adoption at commercial scale.
gnufx 5y ago
> steelpillow: "We should all trust [vulture hacks on 1 April] why, exactly?" El Reg tends to be a bit slow on the ball, but I wonder if it was cunningly held for a day or two (and if they had to spend $1500). https://www.forrester.com/report/web3-promises-a-better-online-future-but-contains-the-seeds-of-a-dystopian-nightmare/RES177246 https://www.forrester.com/report/web3-promises-a-better-onli...
Malic 5y ago
Web3 feels like a Google AMP caliber event; lots of excitement around it that, in hindsight, was created excitement to justify a technology that would be beneficial to the few at the expense of the many. Am I wrong here?
- plorkyeran 5y ago
  The "in hindsight" part is wrong, as that's been an incredibly common criticism from the very beginning.
karmakaze 5y ago
> Decentralization Impossible to achieve, as shown by current crypto projects centering around certain (usually large) actors; Comparing cryptocurrency with content in this way doesn't translate. Cryptocurrency regardless of wallet/identity is fungible. Content isn't. So this point seems to be making the assumption that all the content is pooled and controlled by one voting pool, which I wouldn't take as a given.

I agree that there the seeds of dystopia there, in the guise of progress. Eg is decentralisation a universally good thing? You can also interpret it as a means for big corporations to shift the burden onto the devices of the people who use their services, thereby decreasing their costs at the cost of the consumer. Making you and your hardware a node in their network.

feanaro 5y ago
So don't use the corporation's network but build an open one?

jasfi 5y ago

The ideas in Web 3 are very diverse, and are frequently mixed with already established ways of thinking and doing business. People are trying to figure out what works and what doesn't. It's basically a melting pot of ideas. The best of what works will win. Note: I'm the founder of TradeCast. I'm mixing the crypto trading part with automated trading, but in a way that is transparent and gives users control: https://tradecast.one https://tradecast.one.

orzig 5y ago
I'm not 100% disagreement, but I'd love to see a little more evidence (or at least reasoning) for "The best of what works will win". To start, here's my counter-argument: We're almost exactly 6 years from the release of bitcoin, and it's still dominant by market cap. We either nailed it the first time or the best has not (yet?) won. We're 50 years into computing and the dominant operating systems are from the same companies that dominated ~40 years ago. Did we top out on ideas then?
- jasfi 5y ago
  Web 3 is far bigger than Bitcoin alone. VC money is pouring into Web 3 companies, so I'd say we haven't seen too much of what's coming just yet. It's actually really interesting that you make a comparison to operating systems. I helped get ReactOS started in the late 90s, because Windows was so dominant and there was a tremendous lock-in effect because of the software and drivers that were Windows only. However I still think a clone was not the best direction (I left the project ages ago), and that interfaces to other OSs such as Linux are better. Although I didn't come to this conclusion immediately, mainly because driver APIs seemed difficult to abstract to another OS. That said, Linux has made tremendous strides and WINE has helped it along. With Web 3 you don't have that lock-in effect, so the ideas are flowing more freely. That's why I think Web 3 is different to the OS analogy.
- i14 5y ago
  Well, getting people to change what they use takes time. And it’s hard to compete with big players.
- onetokeoverthe 5y ago
the-dude 5y ago
Adding a disclaimer is common courtesy.
- jasfi 5y ago
  What were you expecting exactly?
  - the-dude 5y ago
    I have misread your "For my part". Please accept my apology. I do feel it could be stated more explicit : I am the creator/founder/CEO of for example.
    - jasfi 5y ago
      No problem, I'll update my comment.
jlgaddis 5y ago
You certainly don't miss an opportunity to make a meaningless, no substance comment just so that you can spam a link to some "project" of yours, do you?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

shoulderfake 5y ago

jchw 5y ago

Personally, I think “Web3” will never come. It’s got as much usability issues as the Linux desktop with no obvious draw for as to why most people should care or work on it. It’s a nebulous term that encompasses a bunch of stuff nobody wanted without the blockchain, and I’m not sure why anyone would want it with the blockchain. Of course this could be a Hacker News Dropbox comment moment. And there’s always that quote “the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent.” Still, I don’t think the “metaverse” or non fungible tokens will have any long term relevance simply because nobody was asking for this crap to begin with. Like many crypto schemes, the majority of players are now in it to cash out, not because they believe in it.

fartcannon 5y ago
Without the pressure of the frankly outstanding Linux desktop, Microsoft and Apple would be renting your computer to you by the minute or some other coporate nightmare. So beyond even its true day to day usefulness, it's importance to your quality of life is likely immeasurable.
- jchw 5y ago
  Maybe, dunno. I am a passionate Linux desktop user. I have the SwayWM configs to prove it. However, unless Apple and Microsoft really did decide to do that, I don’t see a huge likelihood that someone is gonna swoop in and start putting serious resources into fixing stuff. Stuff like Cairo being virtually unmaintained or Qt… well, being Qt and having about 5000 bugs. (Don’t kill me, I like Qt too, but it’s damn buggy.) The point was that the year of the Linux desktop never comes, and it probably never will. If it’s good enough to act as a counterbalance against dystopian outcomes, then fine. I don’t really see it, because I suspect most people don’t really have that much of a choice, for practical reasons, about the computing environments they’re beholden to.
  - XorNot 5y ago
    Linux desktop works well enough for the types of things "normal" people are allowed to do on corporate networks. Like, the ways it can break are no worse then the numerous utterly broken Windows things which Microsoft ships out of the box these days. The Linux desktop suffers from the reality that businesses don't care about their Windows licensing costs, AD admins are a dime a dozen, but an absolute ton of very specialized - different - pieces of enterprise software work on Windows but nowhere else. Of course this my slight bias from being a Cinnamon user, which delivers a quality useful experience - I'm bit more pessimistic the times I've had to deal with Gnome 3 default, which tries to innovate (and shouldn't - we don't need an "innovative" desktop - we need a rock-solid experience that says "what you know without ads or drama").

lngnmn2 5y ago

Web3 is a scam - a bunch of unnecessary redundant abstractions. Imagine your cells could pile up layers of abstract bullshit. Molecular biology has been "optimized" by evolution to stable forms which are necessary and sufficient, and this is the big fundamental lesson. One should remove crap, not pile it up

onetokeoverthe 5y ago

sudden_dystopia 5y ago

I’m pretty critical of “web3” but some of these points are pretty weak: “ Decentralization Impossible to achieve, as shown by current crypto projects centering around certain (usually large) actors; Trust in code, not companies: the belief that a community’s smart contracts encode and enforce its rules We should all trust unknown developers why, exactly? Always using open and transparent code Doesn't stop monopolies forming, and relies on a small pool of people capable of assessing code;” Decentralization, hand waved to impossible. Maybe, but this seems especially worth trying. Unknown developers aren’t trustworthy but inexplicably known developers just are despite plenty of evidence indicating nobody is worthy of actual trust. Open source can only ever rely on a few people to review code whereas somehow enterprise code should just be blindly trusted even though it’s opaque and managed by still just a relative few people.

openfuture 5y ago

No shit. The whole thing is basically about improving the security of the current totalitarian nightmare (i.e. economic system based on a central currency model). Real change will require a rethink of our assumptions. This is something I spend every waking moment on and I am getting close to being able to explain how we get out of this mess but give me time.

fennecfoxen 5y ago
You’ll surely have to work on establishing the current system as dystopian.
- openfuture 5y ago
  Look around. I'd rather be constructive and establish a way forward than joining the chorus of complaint.

chrisbrandow 5y ago

Every time I listen to web3 proponents explain how attaching smart contracts to things like music would work it just sounds like an exhausting nightmare.

fennecfoxen 5y ago
Trading songs on the blockchain sounds like a reasonable idea until you realize any MP3 player that would enforce ownership needs DRM now, which it must either enforce by downloading the blockchain periodically, or periodically talking to some untrustworthy music-industry server that purports to interpret the blockchain but could shut down instead.
- coffeefirst 5y ago
  Yes, this is a terrible idea. I only recently escaped the last of the FairPlay DRM.
21723 5y ago
Music and the arts are where I get worried, because I've seen a lot of good people get involved in NFTs. The regime we had beforehand wasn't working. Spotify royalties were pathetic. The interest in Web3, among artists, comes more from fear for the future than techie opportunism.
- falcolas 5y ago
  Spotify royalties are pathetic because people don’t want to pay very much for music. Even without all the shitty middlemen taking huge slices of the pie, I’m paying less than $4 (family account) to play thousands of songs from hundreds of artists

przeor 5y ago

Web3 requires whole new mindset analogous to 100% electric cars. You can't find value in Tesla, if your mindset is still in 90' and there are no electric charges available. Web3 value proposition is more obvious for people outside west world (eg. Nigeria) and people from countires like USA will have hard time to figure out value, but it doesnt mean Web3 is a scam.There are many ppl calling electric cars a scam. It will take decades to realize on a mass world wide market value of Web3 for a common West/US citizen.

timeon 5y ago
But still it is hard to evaluate from your comment. Maybe we need more than one analogy.
- przeor 5y ago
  In my opinion most general Problem that web3 is solving is related to coordination https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordination_failure_(economics) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordination_failure_(econom... citing: "Coordination failure can lead to an underemployment equilibrium.[3] " ... other problem worth mentioning is lack of trust and transparency. There are many more specific side-problems as well depending on the specific use case etc. in web3 projects
onetokeoverthe 5y ago

benknight87 5y ago

The only thing that really seems to be true about all of this is Blockchain indeed is a huge innovation simply because of its ability to create decentralized trust. Full stop. Web3/crypto tech is currently going through the "Peak of Inflated Expectations" of the Gartner Hype Cycle, and once things settle down and get a little bit more boring, Blockchain applications will find their niche and prove their value in ways we didn't necessarily expect.

labrador 5y ago
This trust is still partial trust in the system. There are a lot more aspects of the system that need to be trusted with your money. The coders who maintain bitcoin, that the miners won't collude, that your wallet won't be drained by hackers and so on... I'd rather trust my money to an FDIC account. It far more likely I'll lose my Bitcoin through some crack in the system that the United States governement collapses and is unable to give me my money, and at that point, Bitcoin wouldn't help me either.
- przeor 5y ago
  Historically, people lost more money in the past by trusting third parties/IOU than trusting Ethereum settling layer. Global trust network was not possible before blockchain tech happend. Whole Switzerland success is built on trust concept in the society. Trust is important.
pg_bot 5y ago
My general take has been that Blockchain is a genuine innovation, but one that is inferior to existing technologies in nearly every respect. It's going to be similar to the Wankel engine or the Tesla turbine historically. Yes it technically *works* but the disadvantages outweigh the benefits of adoption at commercial scale.

gnufx 5y ago

> steelpillow: "We should all trust [vulture hacks on 1 April] why, exactly?" El Reg tends to be a bit slow on the ball, but I wonder if it was cunningly held for a day or two (and if they had to spend $1500). https://www.forrester.com/report/web3-promises-a-better-online-future-but-contains-the-seeds-of-a-dystopian-nightmare/RES177246 https://www.forrester.com/report/web3-promises-a-better-onli...

Malic 5y ago

Web3 feels like a Google AMP caliber event; lots of excitement around it that, in hindsight, was created excitement to justify a technology that would be beneficial to the few at the expense of the many. Am I wrong here?

plorkyeran 5y ago
The "in hindsight" part is wrong, as that's been an incredibly common criticism from the very beginning.

karmakaze 5y ago

> Decentralization Impossible to achieve, as shown by current crypto projects centering around certain (usually large) actors; Comparing cryptocurrency with content in this way doesn't translate. Cryptocurrency regardless of wallet/identity is fungible. Content isn't. So this point seems to be making the assumption that all the content is pooled and controlled by one voting pool, which I wouldn't take as a given.