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Invading a country with mostly non-white, non-christian people: not news Invading a country with most white, christian people: news I don’t think there’s any

Invading a country with mostly non-white, non-christian people: not news Invading a country with most white, christian people: news I don’t think there’s any single global conspiracy, just some deeply seated bias in our systems. But when media outlets, governments, and other organizations all individually try to take advantage of or fall into the biases, you get what smells like global conspiracy.

sokoloff 5y ago
Alternatively: invading a stable, non-aggressor democratic country: news.
- ailef 5y ago
  I'm not sure if you're serious promoting such a characterization of Ukraine. Stable is especially egregious, given there's an ongoing war in eastern Ukraine since 2014. Also, sovereignty is in no way tied to the government system: under international law, you have no more right to invade a dictatorship than a democracy.
  - sharken 5y ago
    Disagree. The conflict in Donbas was started when Russian forces helped those who wanted to take up arms against Ukraine. Had there been no Russian help, things would look very different. See also https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas
    - ailef 5y ago
      Unless you don't agree on the definition of "stable", there's not much to say. You simply cannot define a country with an 8 years long conflict as "stable", whichever the reasons for this conflict are. > Russian forces helped those who wanted to take up arms against Ukraine. > Had there been no Russian help, things would look very different. What you said is true but it fails to provide the context of why these people took up arms against their own government. This is a complicated topic and I don't have the time nor the will to write an in-depth answer, but had there be no Russian help there would be thousands more dead civilians in Donbas rather than the ~3000 there are now.
      - XorNot 5y ago
        You mean the context being that the FSB, in a campaign of bribery and murder, ensured that pro-Russian voices assented, and then when the Russian military moved in, ensured that the referendums of the question of whether to join Russia were "properly observed"? Just one of those things where the territory bordering Russia, easiest to occupy in a campaign of incremental encroachment of the style Russia was/is running in Georgia, also happened to wind up with a pro-Russian rebel group.
        ailef 5y ago
        You are conveniently ignoring that a democratically elected government was violently overthrown in Ukraine, with the involvement of the US, and not everyone was okay with it. After that, those who dissented ended up protesting, and later being supported by Russia. You are not mentioning the explicit discrimination against ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine, the extrajudicial kidnappings and killings, which were not only not condemned, but often cheered upon by the "new" institutions. You are making it look like the war in Donbas did not arise from legitimate population concerns/their self-determination will, but rather a Russian operation.
        XorNot 5y ago
        You mean Euromaidan[1] in 2014? In which Russian puppet Yanukovych used riot police to fire live ammo on protesters, after publicly and "bizarrely" backing out of EU negotiations in favor of Russia, who afterwards was just so happened to find sanctuary in Russia and has been repeatedly named as the favored replacement for democratically-elected Zelensky, who Russia has repeatedly tried to assassinate in the past month? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan
        ailef 5y ago
        Yanukovich was democratically elected as well, but, of course, you are using the adjective only when referring to Zelensky. The fact that you don't like his policies doesn't make it less democratic.
    - justsomehnguy 5y ago
      > While the initial protests were largely native expressions of discontent with the new Ukrainian government, Russia took advantage of them to launch a coordinated political and military campaign against Ukraine.[33] Literally from your own link, second paragraph. Conflict wasn't started "when Russian forces helped".
      - sharken 5y ago
        There is quite a difference between expressions of discontent, which happen all the time, to taking up armed resistance. The Russian interference helped turn the discontent into the current conflict.
chrisco255 5y ago
To be fair, both Iraq wars were major, major news. But Iraq and Afghanistan dragged on for a decade plus, Americans got war fatigue. Reminds me of Fahrenheit 451, where the people are so distracted by entertainment, that the news of imminent war barely moves them emotionally. “We’ve started and won two atomic wars since 2022! Is it because we’re having so much fun at home we’ve forgotten the world? Is it because we’re so rich and the rest of the world’s so poor and we just don’t care if they are? I’ve heard rumors; the world is starving, but we’re well fed. Is it true, the world works hard and we play? Is that why we’re hated so much? I’ve heard the rumors about hate, too, once in a long while, over the years. Do you know why? I don’t, that’s sure!” ― Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451
throwaway4good 5y ago
We Westerners are mostly concerned about ourselves. Hardly a conspiracy.

sokoloff 5y ago

Alternatively: invading a stable, non-aggressor democratic country: news.

ailef 5y ago
I'm not sure if you're serious promoting such a characterization of Ukraine. Stable is especially egregious, given there's an ongoing war in eastern Ukraine since 2014. Also, sovereignty is in no way tied to the government system: under international law, you have no more right to invade a dictatorship than a democracy.
- sharken 5y ago
  Disagree. The conflict in Donbas was started when Russian forces helped those who wanted to take up arms against Ukraine. Had there been no Russian help, things would look very different. See also https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas
  - ailef 5y ago
    Unless you don't agree on the definition of "stable", there's not much to say. You simply cannot define a country with an 8 years long conflict as "stable", whichever the reasons for this conflict are. > Russian forces helped those who wanted to take up arms against Ukraine. > Had there been no Russian help, things would look very different. What you said is true but it fails to provide the context of why these people took up arms against their own government. This is a complicated topic and I don't have the time nor the will to write an in-depth answer, but had there be no Russian help there would be thousands more dead civilians in Donbas rather than the ~3000 there are now.
    - XorNot 5y ago
      You mean the context being that the FSB, in a campaign of bribery and murder, ensured that pro-Russian voices assented, and then when the Russian military moved in, ensured that the referendums of the question of whether to join Russia were "properly observed"? Just one of those things where the territory bordering Russia, easiest to occupy in a campaign of incremental encroachment of the style Russia was/is running in Georgia, also happened to wind up with a pro-Russian rebel group.
      - ailef 5y ago
        You are conveniently ignoring that a democratically elected government was violently overthrown in Ukraine, with the involvement of the US, and not everyone was okay with it. After that, those who dissented ended up protesting, and later being supported by Russia. You are not mentioning the explicit discrimination against ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine, the extrajudicial kidnappings and killings, which were not only not condemned, but often cheered upon by the "new" institutions. You are making it look like the war in Donbas did not arise from legitimate population concerns/their self-determination will, but rather a Russian operation.
        XorNot 5y ago
        You mean Euromaidan[1] in 2014? In which Russian puppet Yanukovych used riot police to fire live ammo on protesters, after publicly and "bizarrely" backing out of EU negotiations in favor of Russia, who afterwards was just so happened to find sanctuary in Russia and has been repeatedly named as the favored replacement for democratically-elected Zelensky, who Russia has repeatedly tried to assassinate in the past month? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan
        ailef 5y ago
        Yanukovich was democratically elected as well, but, of course, you are using the adjective only when referring to Zelensky. The fact that you don't like his policies doesn't make it less democratic.
  - justsomehnguy 5y ago
    > While the initial protests were largely native expressions of discontent with the new Ukrainian government, Russia took advantage of them to launch a coordinated political and military campaign against Ukraine.[33] Literally from your own link, second paragraph. Conflict wasn't started "when Russian forces helped".
    - sharken 5y ago
      There is quite a difference between expressions of discontent, which happen all the time, to taking up armed resistance. The Russian interference helped turn the discontent into the current conflict.

chrisco255 5y ago

To be fair, both Iraq wars were major, major news. But Iraq and Afghanistan dragged on for a decade plus, Americans got war fatigue. Reminds me of Fahrenheit 451, where the people are so distracted by entertainment, that the news of imminent war barely moves them emotionally. “We’ve started and won two atomic wars since 2022! Is it because we’re having so much fun at home we’ve forgotten the world? Is it because we’re so rich and the rest of the world’s so poor and we just don’t care if they are? I’ve heard rumors; the world is starving, but we’re well fed. Is it true, the world works hard and we play? Is that why we’re hated so much? I’ve heard the rumors about hate, too, once in a long while, over the years. Do you know why? I don’t, that’s sure!” ― Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451

throwaway4good 5y ago

We Westerners are mostly concerned about ourselves. Hardly a conspiracy.