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I appreciated the link to Umberto Eco's essay on Ur-Fascism. Point 8 on the fascists is topical: 8. The followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious weal

I appreciated the link to Umberto Eco's essay on Ur-Fascism. Point 8 on the fascists is topical: 8. The followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies. When I was a boy I was taught to think of Englishmen as the five-meal people. They ate more frequently than the poor but sober Italians. Jews are rich and help each other through a secret web of mutual assistance. However, the followers must be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak. Fascist governments are condemned to lose wars because they are constitutionally incapable of objectively evaluating the force of the enemy. https://web.archive.org/web/20170131155837/http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/ https://web.archive.org/web/20170131155837/http://www.nybook...

pastacacioepepe 5y ago
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  People generally don't like imperialist apologia. You can certainly criticise NATO, but if you're using criticism of NATO to imply that they're the bad actors in the invasion of Ukraine, you're going to get called out on it.
  - pastacacioepepe 5y ago
    That's exactly what I'm referring to, thanks for providing an example.
    - beaconstudios 5y ago
      So what, you think that Russia invading Ukraine is a defensive war against NATO aggression? How can an invasion be defensive? I'm not "cancelling" you here by the way, more just calling you wrong. Just like other people appear to be doing so, but sure, if you want to be a victim over it then that's your choice I guess.
    - yywwbbn 5y ago
      So please share how exactly do you think NATO instigated this conflict and left Russia no other choice but to start this absurd war?
      - pastacacioepepe 5y ago
        yywwbbn 5y ago
        Thanks, but you sound like the last person I’d want to take a history lesson from. Btw, why do you presume I don’t know anything about the history of Ukrainian Russia relations? : D
        beaconstudios 5y ago
        "Although the United States has many wars of aggression on its conscience, it doesn’t justify Mr. Putin’s aggression in Ukraine. A dozen wrongs don’t make a right. Russia was wrong to invade." - Oliver Stone
        pastacacioepepe 5y ago
        I don't really care about mr. Stone's opinion, I care about the facts he exposed.
        beaconstudios 5y ago
        Even though the Azov battalion is a fascist group, there is broader fascist sentiment in Ukraine and NATO were in talks with Ukraine, that doesn't change the fact that "de-Nazification" is an excuse for an imperial exercise. But then again, you seem to be OK with imperialism as long as its done by countries opposed to NATO and the US, like Russia. Are you a tankie or something?
        everybodyknows 5y ago
        > Ukraine on fire Haven't seen it myself, so no comment other than this curiosity: Released in 2016 ... https://m.imdb.com/title/tt5724358/ https://m.imdb.com/title/tt5724358/ ... But not to be confused with 2015's Winter On Fire, which the IMDB reviewers rated a bit higher: https://m.imdb.com/title/tt4908644/ https://m.imdb.com/title/tt4908644/
    - madaxe_again 5y ago
      … no. You aren’t being arrested for treason, you’re welcome to make an ass of yourself, and while you’re disagreed with, you’re neither censored or censured for it. In Russia, you would face very real consequences for disagreeing with the party line.
      - xtian 5y ago
        Which party?
    - tim333 5y ago
      re >The liberal strategy to silence anyone opposing NATO and the escalation of war is to label them as traitors I'm genuinely curious as to whether that has ever happened, that someone opposing NATO has been called a traitor. Do you have an example? I wonder who I'd betraying if I opposed NATO.
- jhgb 5y ago
  There's no need to "critically analyze the complex geopolitical situation" when one state is being invaded by another. That's like asking for "critically analyzing road safety" when someone is being rushed into the ER after a car accident. Leave the irrelevant for later when you have some leisure time, should you wish to spend it that way. Treat the accident victim before he bleeds out.
  - pastacacioepepe 5y ago
  - tut-urut-utut 5y ago
    Exactly. How many states have been invaded by the USA and their allies? 50? 60? Let’s decrease timeframe only to this century. Is it 20+ or less? Right now there’s at least 5 active invasions of NATO members against other states, but people get outraged only about one. With double standards and double morals we’ll never achieve world peace.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- lalaland1125 5y ago
  > The liberal strategy to silence anyone opposing NATO and the escalation of war is to label them as traitors, or at best Russia-affiliated. This whole "silencing" framing, where the act of criticism (and only the act of criticism, nobody is being persecuted by the government here) is considered "silencing" is incoherent. By this logic, you are "silencing" pro-NATO people by accusing them of using fascist rhetoric.
  - pastacacioepepe 5y ago
    I don't think so. Anyone who criticizes the NATO pro war narrative at the moment is labeled as intruder, in the form of Russia-affiliate or traitor, and that's exactly what is described by Umberto Eco: > The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders So we're not yet at the "jail the traitors" phase, but this is exactly how a prematurely fascist movement behaves. Also, I'm not silencing pro-NATO peopl in any way. They have on their side almost the totality of mass media and western governments. There is no way I can silence their narrative, in fact I'm very much subject to it against my will everytime I browse the web or watch tv.
    - ben_w 5y ago
      > Anyone who criticizes the NATO pro war narrative NATO has a narrative in favour or the war between Russia and Ukraine? That’s new to me.
- petre 5y ago
  In the West we do not get up to 15 year prison sentences for criticising NATO. We merely get in an argument. > The liberal strategy to silence anyone opposing NATO and the escalation of war The US president, Joe Biden, is opposing war or NATO intervention in Ukraine. He specifically kept the US Navy out of the Black Sea to avoid escalation because he believes it would trigger WW3. Nobody is being silenced. > the complex geopolitical situation It's not a complex geopolitical situation. It is a revanchard war, a one man's attempt and ambition to recreate the USSR and for Russia to be "taken seriously" again. He's the one obsessed with a NATO plot against Russia, when in fact there is no NATO plot. Eastern European nations have decided to join NATO themselves, after being part of the Warsaw Pact. Poland and Romania have decided themselves to host NATO defensive installations. They could have refused, but they did not. Why? Because in Eastern Europe, Russia is seen not as a friend, but as a threat. The recent war in Ukraine is further evidence that Russia is indeed a threat to Europe as a whole.

pastacacioepepe 5y ago

beaconstudios 5y ago
People generally don't like imperialist apologia. You can certainly criticise NATO, but if you're using criticism of NATO to imply that they're the bad actors in the invasion of Ukraine, you're going to get called out on it.
- pastacacioepepe 5y ago
  That's exactly what I'm referring to, thanks for providing an example.
  - beaconstudios 5y ago
    So what, you think that Russia invading Ukraine is a defensive war against NATO aggression? How can an invasion be defensive? I'm not "cancelling" you here by the way, more just calling you wrong. Just like other people appear to be doing so, but sure, if you want to be a victim over it then that's your choice I guess.
  - yywwbbn 5y ago
    So please share how exactly do you think NATO instigated this conflict and left Russia no other choice but to start this absurd war?
    - pastacacioepepe 5y ago
      - yywwbbn 5y ago
        Thanks, but you sound like the last person I’d want to take a history lesson from. Btw, why do you presume I don’t know anything about the history of Ukrainian Russia relations? : D
      - beaconstudios 5y ago
        "Although the United States has many wars of aggression on its conscience, it doesn’t justify Mr. Putin’s aggression in Ukraine. A dozen wrongs don’t make a right. Russia was wrong to invade." - Oliver Stone
        pastacacioepepe 5y ago
        I don't really care about mr. Stone's opinion, I care about the facts he exposed.
        beaconstudios 5y ago
        Even though the Azov battalion is a fascist group, there is broader fascist sentiment in Ukraine and NATO were in talks with Ukraine, that doesn't change the fact that "de-Nazification" is an excuse for an imperial exercise. But then again, you seem to be OK with imperialism as long as its done by countries opposed to NATO and the US, like Russia. Are you a tankie or something?
      - everybodyknows 5y ago
        > Ukraine on fire Haven't seen it myself, so no comment other than this curiosity: Released in 2016 ... https://m.imdb.com/title/tt5724358/ https://m.imdb.com/title/tt5724358/ ... But not to be confused with 2015's Winter On Fire, which the IMDB reviewers rated a bit higher: https://m.imdb.com/title/tt4908644/ https://m.imdb.com/title/tt4908644/
  - madaxe_again 5y ago
    … no. You aren’t being arrested for treason, you’re welcome to make an ass of yourself, and while you’re disagreed with, you’re neither censored or censured for it. In Russia, you would face very real consequences for disagreeing with the party line.
    - xtian 5y ago
      Which party?
  - tim333 5y ago
    re >The liberal strategy to silence anyone opposing NATO and the escalation of war is to label them as traitors I'm genuinely curious as to whether that has ever happened, that someone opposing NATO has been called a traitor. Do you have an example? I wonder who I'd betraying if I opposed NATO.
jhgb 5y ago
There's no need to "critically analyze the complex geopolitical situation" when one state is being invaded by another. That's like asking for "critically analyzing road safety" when someone is being rushed into the ER after a car accident. Leave the irrelevant for later when you have some leisure time, should you wish to spend it that way. Treat the accident victim before he bleeds out.
- pastacacioepepe 5y ago
- tut-urut-utut 5y ago
  Exactly. How many states have been invaded by the USA and their allies? 50? 60? Let’s decrease timeframe only to this century. Is it 20+ or less? Right now there’s at least 5 active invasions of NATO members against other states, but people get outraged only about one. With double standards and double morals we’ll never achieve world peace.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
lalaland1125 5y ago
> The liberal strategy to silence anyone opposing NATO and the escalation of war is to label them as traitors, or at best Russia-affiliated. This whole "silencing" framing, where the act of criticism (and only the act of criticism, nobody is being persecuted by the government here) is considered "silencing" is incoherent. By this logic, you are "silencing" pro-NATO people by accusing them of using fascist rhetoric.
- pastacacioepepe 5y ago
  I don't think so. Anyone who criticizes the NATO pro war narrative at the moment is labeled as intruder, in the form of Russia-affiliate or traitor, and that's exactly what is described by Umberto Eco: > The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders So we're not yet at the "jail the traitors" phase, but this is exactly how a prematurely fascist movement behaves. Also, I'm not silencing pro-NATO peopl in any way. They have on their side almost the totality of mass media and western governments. There is no way I can silence their narrative, in fact I'm very much subject to it against my will everytime I browse the web or watch tv.
  - ben_w 5y ago
    > Anyone who criticizes the NATO pro war narrative NATO has a narrative in favour or the war between Russia and Ukraine? That’s new to me.
petre 5y ago
In the West we do not get up to 15 year prison sentences for criticising NATO. We merely get in an argument. > The liberal strategy to silence anyone opposing NATO and the escalation of war The US president, Joe Biden, is opposing war or NATO intervention in Ukraine. He specifically kept the US Navy out of the Black Sea to avoid escalation because he believes it would trigger WW3. Nobody is being silenced. > the complex geopolitical situation It's not a complex geopolitical situation. It is a revanchard war, a one man's attempt and ambition to recreate the USSR and for Russia to be "taken seriously" again. He's the one obsessed with a NATO plot against Russia, when in fact there is no NATO plot. Eastern European nations have decided to join NATO themselves, after being part of the Warsaw Pact. Poland and Romania have decided themselves to host NATO defensive installations. They could have refused, but they did not. Why? Because in Eastern Europe, Russia is seen not as a friend, but as a threat. The recent war in Ukraine is further evidence that Russia is indeed a threat to Europe as a whole.