6 ms·

Neither of the two parties represents anything close to a small-government platform.

Retric 5y ago
I agree. So, the question is if you want lower spending etc, who do you vote for? It’s not obvious. Take a corporate tax loophole, is that spending and or a form of economic control? Foreign ownership of US companies compounds this, is it giving money to foreigners or good economic policy etc.
- parineum 5y ago
  > Take a corporate tax loophole Tax policy you disagree with isn't a loophole.
  - glitchc 5y ago
    Tax policy that benefits the select few instead of the country is a loophole.
    - parineum 5y ago
      Not if it was designed to do that. A loophole is using a thing (a loophole) for something it is not supposed to be used for but is advantageous (entry).
      - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
        This is like saying a 'backdoor' isn't a backdoor because the hacker who put it there intended it to be used for nefarious purposes.
        parineum 5y ago
        Backdoors are, by definition, intentionally put in place surreptitiously. In fact, you could better call this exact tax policy being discussed as a backdoor for rich people in the tax code.
  - kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
    Forward carried interest is a loophole created for the express purpose of letting the wealthy occupy a lower tax bracket. It has no other public benefit.
    - parineum 5y ago
      > loophole created for the express purpose This is an oxymoron.
      - kelnos 5y ago
        While perhaps technically true, I think you are taking a word's general strict meaning, and are attempting to apply it to something where the meaning is often stretched a bit liberally. While yes, it is true that a "loophole" is something that is unintended but allows some subset of people to benefit, when it comes to "tax loophole", that has colloquially come to mean "any means by which a special interest group gets to avoid taxes". "Tax loopholes" can be intentionally added to the tax code, even if "loophole" implies something unintentional. Remember that English is a living language, and meanings change to suit how people use words, not how the dictionary may have once defined them.
        parineum 5y ago
        > when it comes to "tax loophole", that has colloquially come to mean "any means by which a special interest group gets to avoid taxes". "Tax loopholes" can be intentionally added to the tax code, even if "loophole" implies something unintentional. You're wrong. You just have been using the term wrong and listening to people who do as well. Loopholes are unintentional. The things you are referring to are intentionally placed in the tax code for people to take advantage of. Do you consider the solar credit a tax loophole for people with solar? >Remember that English is a living language, and meanings change to suit how people use words, not how the dictionary may have once defined them. Great but this doesn't apply to "loophole". You're just wrong and doubling down. >tax loophole >A provision in the laws governing taxation that allows people to reduce their taxes. The term has the connotation of an unintentional omission or obscurity in the law that allows the reduction of tax liability to a point below that intended by the framers of the law.
  - Retric 5y ago
    I mean loophole as in an unintended side effect of tax law. The classic double Irish with a Dutch sandwich was emergent behavior based on how US, EU, Irish, and Dutch tax codes all intertwined.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  Paying less taxes is not government "spending". A person's income is not government property that the government generously allows the person to keep some of it.
  - mantas 5y ago
    Reducing taxes, especially in a selective way, is essentially state spending money on subsidies.
    - roenxi 5y ago
      Although you are correct, the point goes further than that because any system of taxation is effectively a subsidy to whatever doesn't get taxed. Income taxes cause over-allocation to assets, wealth taxes cause over-allocation to short term spending, taxing left handed people causes allocation to right handed people, etc. I like the idea of a land value tax/Georgism, from a philosophical belief that we should under-allocate to people whos claim to fame is that they got to the land first. But nevertheless the original point stands - the state may be handing out advantages but it is not a form of spending. Not taking stuff is different to handing something out even if in some models they have equivalent effects.
      - WalterBright 5y ago
        That's abusing the word "subsidy".
        Retric 5y ago
        A tax break on any farmer that grows corn is a corn subsidy. It’s the classic definition of a subsidy in that it reduces costs to create something. Often things are written so exactly one company benefits when they agree to build something like a sports stadium in exchange for zero property taxes for N years. If that subsidy isn’t large large enough they may also hand out cash.
        5y ago

I agree. So, the question is if you want lower spending etc, who do you vote for? It’s not obvious. Take a corporate tax loophole, is that spending and or a form of economic control? Foreign ownership of US companies compounds this, is it giving money to foreigners or good economic policy etc.

parineum 5y ago
> Take a corporate tax loophole Tax policy you disagree with isn't a loophole.
- glitchc 5y ago
  Tax policy that benefits the select few instead of the country is a loophole.
  - parineum 5y ago
    Not if it was designed to do that. A loophole is using a thing (a loophole) for something it is not supposed to be used for but is advantageous (entry).
    - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
      This is like saying a 'backdoor' isn't a backdoor because the hacker who put it there intended it to be used for nefarious purposes.
      - parineum 5y ago
        Backdoors are, by definition, intentionally put in place surreptitiously. In fact, you could better call this exact tax policy being discussed as a backdoor for rich people in the tax code.
- kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
  Forward carried interest is a loophole created for the express purpose of letting the wealthy occupy a lower tax bracket. It has no other public benefit.
  - parineum 5y ago
    > loophole created for the express purpose This is an oxymoron.
    - kelnos 5y ago
      While perhaps technically true, I think you are taking a word's general strict meaning, and are attempting to apply it to something where the meaning is often stretched a bit liberally. While yes, it is true that a "loophole" is something that is unintended but allows some subset of people to benefit, when it comes to "tax loophole", that has colloquially come to mean "any means by which a special interest group gets to avoid taxes". "Tax loopholes" can be intentionally added to the tax code, even if "loophole" implies something unintentional. Remember that English is a living language, and meanings change to suit how people use words, not how the dictionary may have once defined them.
      - parineum 5y ago
        > when it comes to "tax loophole", that has colloquially come to mean "any means by which a special interest group gets to avoid taxes". "Tax loopholes" can be intentionally added to the tax code, even if "loophole" implies something unintentional. You're wrong. You just have been using the term wrong and listening to people who do as well. Loopholes are unintentional. The things you are referring to are intentionally placed in the tax code for people to take advantage of. Do you consider the solar credit a tax loophole for people with solar? >Remember that English is a living language, and meanings change to suit how people use words, not how the dictionary may have once defined them. Great but this doesn't apply to "loophole". You're just wrong and doubling down. >tax loophole >A provision in the laws governing taxation that allows people to reduce their taxes. The term has the connotation of an unintentional omission or obscurity in the law that allows the reduction of tax liability to a point below that intended by the framers of the law.
- Retric 5y ago
  I mean loophole as in an unintended side effect of tax law. The classic double Irish with a Dutch sandwich was emergent behavior based on how US, EU, Irish, and Dutch tax codes all intertwined.
WalterBright 5y ago
Paying less taxes is not government "spending". A person's income is not government property that the government generously allows the person to keep some of it.
- mantas 5y ago
  Reducing taxes, especially in a selective way, is essentially state spending money on subsidies.
  - roenxi 5y ago
    Although you are correct, the point goes further than that because any system of taxation is effectively a subsidy to whatever doesn't get taxed. Income taxes cause over-allocation to assets, wealth taxes cause over-allocation to short term spending, taxing left handed people causes allocation to right handed people, etc. I like the idea of a land value tax/Georgism, from a philosophical belief that we should under-allocate to people whos claim to fame is that they got to the land first. But nevertheless the original point stands - the state may be handing out advantages but it is not a form of spending. Not taking stuff is different to handing something out even if in some models they have equivalent effects.
    - WalterBright 5y ago
      That's abusing the word "subsidy".
      - Retric 5y ago
        A tax break on any farmer that grows corn is a corn subsidy. It’s the classic definition of a subsidy in that it reduces costs to create something. Often things are written so exactly one company benefits when they agree to build something like a sports stadium in exchange for zero property taxes for N years. If that subsidy isn’t large large enough they may also hand out cash.
        5y ago