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Waterfowl do fly from water source to water source. Also, they migrate. Also, their bones are hollow. I still don't see how penises have anything to do with

Waterfowl do fly from water source to water source. Also, they migrate. Also, their bones are hollow. I still don't see how penises have anything to do with being flightless. You've decided that since tinamous are fairly terrestrial birds that it must be a terrestrial bird thing, so you've found a way to convince yourself that waterfowl don't fly enough to be considered flying birds and then you shoehorned some theory in there about that causing them to have penises. Chickens, even the Red Junglefowl that the domestic chicken presumably descended from, are much more terrestrial than ducks and geese. You've worked in restaurants. What kind of penis does a chicken have? You know what else is aquatic and doesn't fly? Penguins! What kind of penis does a penguin have? Loons? They're basically wonky ducks. Pheasants, turkeys, kakapos? They've all got penises, right?

jelliclesfarm 5y ago
Are you arguing with me for amusement or speaking from authority? I need that clarified before I can spend more time on this. We can go over entire lists of all the birds found in nature but the way it actually works is we classify them into broad categories and generalize.
- msrenee 5y ago
  Both. I've got a biology background and have education in ornithology and ecology. I've spent time in the field with a number of species of birds. It's been a while since I've worked with birds, but I've got a solid foundation and am capable of understanding the literature for topics where my memory's lapsed. Yes, we classify them into categories. I'm trying to figure out how you've managed to convince yourself that ducks and tinamous fall into this special category of terrestrial birds which the experts should obviously know have penises for obvious reasons, but these other birds with the same life history don't fall into this magical category and thus don't have them. What about tinamous and anatids place them in this group which excludes penguins, turkeys, loons, and all of the other birds which are either aquatic or terrestrial and do not have penises? Edit: I'm also waiting here for you to bring the Rattites into this. I'm a little disappointed honestly. There's some arguments for you to make from that family and I don't know why you haven't brought them up.
  - jelliclesfarm 5y ago
    I didn’t say tinamous and ducks fall in the same category. I said that it makes sense for ground foragers(most flightless birds) and water fowl(anatids) to be more picky with their mate selection due to the easier access to resources. Birds copulating in flight are not resisting and simply cannot due to their dynamics. Where did you get information about loon, penguin and turkeys and their respective penii? They are not adjacent classes as chicken and geese(which was what I was talking about..).
    - msrenee 5y ago
      - jelliclesfarm 5y ago
  - jelliclesfarm 5y ago
    Let’s break it down: 1. Do the birds have easy access to food resources? 2. Do they have to take flight to look for food? 3. Do they migrate? 4. Do they have predators in the wild? 5. Are they aggressive or docile? 6. Are they domesticated? 7. Are they monogamous or promiscuous? Take all the bird examples you can think of + chicken/eggs. Make a table and let me know how my ‘shoehorned’ theory fails. Unlike you, I am not an expert. Or a scientist. I farm and have been a chef. I haven’t had an opportunity to check for ostrich penis, but I have cooked them for breakfast.
    - msrenee 5y ago
      How do you explain the fact that penguins, turkeys, and loons do not have penises even though they all fit your requirements for birds that should have them?
      - jelliclesfarm 5y ago
        What is your opinion as an expert and a biologist? ETA: I am not interested in an never ending ‘what about’ or gotcha games. However, if you are willing, I will walk you through critical thinking process using logic and multi modal approach to answering questions that confound us. I will present you with a set of questions you can answer as a biologist/expert or you can google. At the end of it, you will arrive at the answer you want. It will be fun.
jelliclesfarm 5y ago
No. Water fowl bones have higher density than..say..a finch or sparrow. Flying birds have different lung design..they have to be light and smaller birds hearts beat faster than bigger birds. A raptor has a slower heart rate than a hummingbird.
- msrenee 5y ago
  Yes. Waterfowl have hollow bones. They may be denser than a hummingbird's, but that does not mean they are solid. Raptors have a slower heartbeat than hummingbirds. That is true. What does that have to do with any of this?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - jelliclesfarm 5y ago
    https://www.birdspot.co.uk/bird-reproduction/do-birds-have-penises https://www.birdspot.co.uk/bird-reproduction/do-birds-have-p... [..] In birds, apoptosis of the genital tubercle is triggered by a gene called Bone morphogenetic protein 4, or Bmp4, a protein involved in bone, muscle, cartilage, and limb development. In the majority of birds, Bmp4 gets switched on and blocks the genital tubercle from developing into a penis so they either lack one altogether or it’s so small as to be rendered useless. In ducks and other birds which grow penises, Bmp4 remains switched off and the genital tubercle develops into a functioning penis. But although this explains how most birds end up penis-less, it doesn’t explain why. And scientists are still not sure of the answer to that conundrum. There are several plausible explanations. It could be that the loss of the penis was an unfortunate side-effect of Bmp4 triggering other changes to body parts such as the development of feathers, or the variations in beak size. A bird without a penis carries less weight and therefore would be able to fly more easily, although this theory is unlikely when you consider that fact that ducks make some of the longest migrations of all species of birds. And most flightless birds or birds who fly very little, other than the ratites, have non-existent penises.[..] Hope this helps.

jelliclesfarm 5y ago

Are you arguing with me for amusement or speaking from authority? I need that clarified before I can spend more time on this. We can go over entire lists of all the birds found in nature but the way it actually works is we classify them into broad categories and generalize.

msrenee 5y ago
Both. I've got a biology background and have education in ornithology and ecology. I've spent time in the field with a number of species of birds. It's been a while since I've worked with birds, but I've got a solid foundation and am capable of understanding the literature for topics where my memory's lapsed. Yes, we classify them into categories. I'm trying to figure out how you've managed to convince yourself that ducks and tinamous fall into this special category of terrestrial birds which the experts should obviously know have penises for obvious reasons, but these other birds with the same life history don't fall into this magical category and thus don't have them. What about tinamous and anatids place them in this group which excludes penguins, turkeys, loons, and all of the other birds which are either aquatic or terrestrial and do not have penises? Edit: I'm also waiting here for you to bring the Rattites into this. I'm a little disappointed honestly. There's some arguments for you to make from that family and I don't know why you haven't brought them up.
- jelliclesfarm 5y ago
  I didn’t say tinamous and ducks fall in the same category. I said that it makes sense for ground foragers(most flightless birds) and water fowl(anatids) to be more picky with their mate selection due to the easier access to resources. Birds copulating in flight are not resisting and simply cannot due to their dynamics. Where did you get information about loon, penguin and turkeys and their respective penii? They are not adjacent classes as chicken and geese(which was what I was talking about..).
  - msrenee 5y ago
    - jelliclesfarm 5y ago
- jelliclesfarm 5y ago
  Let’s break it down: 1. Do the birds have easy access to food resources? 2. Do they have to take flight to look for food? 3. Do they migrate? 4. Do they have predators in the wild? 5. Are they aggressive or docile? 6. Are they domesticated? 7. Are they monogamous or promiscuous? Take all the bird examples you can think of + chicken/eggs. Make a table and let me know how my ‘shoehorned’ theory fails. Unlike you, I am not an expert. Or a scientist. I farm and have been a chef. I haven’t had an opportunity to check for ostrich penis, but I have cooked them for breakfast.
  - msrenee 5y ago
    How do you explain the fact that penguins, turkeys, and loons do not have penises even though they all fit your requirements for birds that should have them?
    - jelliclesfarm 5y ago
      What is your opinion as an expert and a biologist? ETA: I am not interested in an never ending ‘what about’ or gotcha games. However, if you are willing, I will walk you through critical thinking process using logic and multi modal approach to answering questions that confound us. I will present you with a set of questions you can answer as a biologist/expert or you can google. At the end of it, you will arrive at the answer you want. It will be fun.

jelliclesfarm 5y ago

No. Water fowl bones have higher density than..say..a finch or sparrow. Flying birds have different lung design..they have to be light and smaller birds hearts beat faster than bigger birds. A raptor has a slower heart rate than a hummingbird.

msrenee 5y ago
Yes. Waterfowl have hollow bones. They may be denser than a hummingbird's, but that does not mean they are solid. Raptors have a slower heartbeat than hummingbirds. That is true. What does that have to do with any of this?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- jelliclesfarm 5y ago
  https://www.birdspot.co.uk/bird-reproduction/do-birds-have-penises https://www.birdspot.co.uk/bird-reproduction/do-birds-have-p... [..] In birds, apoptosis of the genital tubercle is triggered by a gene called Bone morphogenetic protein 4, or Bmp4, a protein involved in bone, muscle, cartilage, and limb development. In the majority of birds, Bmp4 gets switched on and blocks the genital tubercle from developing into a penis so they either lack one altogether or it’s so small as to be rendered useless. In ducks and other birds which grow penises, Bmp4 remains switched off and the genital tubercle develops into a functioning penis. But although this explains how most birds end up penis-less, it doesn’t explain why. And scientists are still not sure of the answer to that conundrum. There are several plausible explanations. It could be that the loss of the penis was an unfortunate side-effect of Bmp4 triggering other changes to body parts such as the development of feathers, or the variations in beak size. A bird without a penis carries less weight and therefore would be able to fly more easily, although this theory is unlikely when you consider that fact that ducks make some of the longest migrations of all species of birds. And most flightless birds or birds who fly very little, other than the ratites, have non-existent penises.[..] Hope this helps.