4 ms·

81% of Russians Support the War

13 points by holografix 5y ago

NoPie 5y ago
It is true but it is so unbelievable and surreal. How can it be? I have friends in Russia and now I read their posts on vk.com and so many of them are pro-war completely believe Putin's narrative. It is so sad.
- dane-pgp 5y ago
  Maintaining a separate view of reality from everyone else around you is cognitively expensive, even if your view is the one that agrees with the facts, and even if you don't have to worry about being shunned by your peers or disappeared by the powerful. Sadly, human brains are very good at coming up with justifications for what they want to believe, and people probably find that loudly embracing the false narratives is an effective way to drown out their cognitive dissonance.
- hindsightbias 5y ago
  73% of Americans saw Operation Iraqi Freedom as morally justified https://news.gallup.com/poll/1633/iraq.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/1633/iraq.aspx And they had a access to every narrative. Kudos to that Russian 19% with no alternatives.
  - vegai_ 5y ago
    >Kudos to that Russian 19% with no alternatives. Probably a good portion of those 19% have ways to browse western media.
- downrightmike 5y ago
  Hope they're also good with paying Ukraine war reparations for the next few generations too.
  - drekk 5y ago
    Do you support the US paying reparations? UK? France? Belgium? Just curious, asking for hundreds of millions of civilian casualties. I support Russia paying reparations to Ukraine if we're going to be consistent about it when the victims are, for example, Yemeni
    - downrightmike 5y ago
      Why would the US? If the US hadn't helped in WW2, they'd all be Germany now.
      - ttybird2 5y ago
        They are talking about US/UK/etc paying reparations to middle eastern countries.
- sidibe 5y ago
  Yup, one of the nice things about todays internet with stuff like Translate and Google Lens is you can go and see for yourself. I thought Pikabu.ru was a relatively liberal social media site and now they've all rallied around the flag and subscribe to and spout out all of Putin's talking points and even now move Kadyrov
HarryHirsch 5y ago
One wonders: how many Americans would have supported a shooting war in Cuba, had it come to it in 1962.
- dane-pgp 5y ago
  The Cuba situation was perhaps a little more complicated because the US implemented a naval blockade of the island (disingenuously labelled a "quarantine"), which, to many, didn't look like an act of war. Therefore if the Soviets had tried to exercise their sovereign right to dock their ships at a Cuban port, and the US navy had opened fire, then there might have been uncertainty about whether the Soviet breaching of the blockade was an act of aggression that the US was merely defending itself against. No such ambiguity exists in Russia's recent invasion of Ukraine, despite their label of "special military operation". Their covert invasion (and effective military occupation) of Crimea and the separatist regions are better examples of ambiguous acts of war, though.
- zardo 5y ago
  They'd probably have been mostly concerned with how to avoid radiation poisoning, and which of their friends and family survived the nuclear exchange.
- NoPie 5y ago
  How many Cubans would have supported it today? Cubans today are totally unhappy with their socialistic government. They would have definitely be better off if their government had fallen. On the other hand, democracy cannot be established by weapons. People need to desire it themselves first.
- akhmatova 5y ago
  A similar percentage or higher, given the climate at the time.
wrp 5y ago
If you are interested in trying to understand the Russian perspective, I'd suggest the stuff from Richard Sakwa, like his book Frontline Ukraine: Crisis in the Borderlands.[1] Sakwa is a Russia specialist and seems to have put more effort that anyone else into understanding how Russians view the Ukraine situation. Pro-Ukrainian writers have accused him of being an apologist for Russia, but I think it's more accurate to say that he tries to be objectively critical and so doesn't support popular narratives. [1] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/24717077-frontline-ukraine https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/24717077-frontline-uk...
- akhmatova 5y ago
  Pro-Ukrainian writers have accused him of being an apologist for Russia There is a certain slipperiness to Sakwa's language that makes it clear where is his sympathies rest -- and that he is not merely reporting "how the average Russian citizen sees it". For example, the title he chose for this opinion piece, put out just a few weeks before the orchestrated murder campaign that some are calling a "war": Whisper it, but Putin has a point in Ukraine as buttressed by the nauseating content of that piece are precisely what brigs the "apologist" description, applied to Sakwa, into sharp focus.
  - wrp 5y ago
    Here is that January 25 piece with its "nauseating content." https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/whisper-it-but-putin-has-a-point-in-ukraine https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/whisper-it-but-putin-has... Also, here is a more detailed piece from March 10. https://prruk.org/the-march-of-folly-resumed-russia-ukraine-and-the-west/ https://prruk.org/the-march-of-folly-resumed-russia-ukraine-...
    - akhmatova 5y ago
      Here is that January 25 piece with its "nauseating content." If you can think of better terminology to describe such obsequious blather as To protect its own security, Russia desires a neutral, friendly, multilingual Ukraine please let us know.
amai 5y ago
It is illegal in Russia to be against the war. So what outcome do you expect from the polls?
akhmatova 5y ago
The only slightly lower numbers for support within the country (73 percent) for the U.S.'s (none too dissimilar) invasion of Iraq in 2003 (as posted by another commenter) are actually quite important, for context. Given that the NYT was perhaps the most notable of journalistic cheerleaders for that debacle -- a shameful episode in its history that it now "regrets" -- their failure to mention this context should not be surprising.

13 points by holografix 5y ago

It is true but it is so unbelievable and surreal. How can it be? I have friends in Russia and now I read their posts on vk.com and so many of them are pro-war completely believe Putin's narrative. It is so sad.

dane-pgp 5y ago
Maintaining a separate view of reality from everyone else around you is cognitively expensive, even if your view is the one that agrees with the facts, and even if you don't have to worry about being shunned by your peers or disappeared by the powerful. Sadly, human brains are very good at coming up with justifications for what they want to believe, and people probably find that loudly embracing the false narratives is an effective way to drown out their cognitive dissonance.
hindsightbias 5y ago
73% of Americans saw Operation Iraqi Freedom as morally justified https://news.gallup.com/poll/1633/iraq.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/1633/iraq.aspx And they had a access to every narrative. Kudos to that Russian 19% with no alternatives.
- vegai_ 5y ago
  >Kudos to that Russian 19% with no alternatives. Probably a good portion of those 19% have ways to browse western media.
downrightmike 5y ago
Hope they're also good with paying Ukraine war reparations for the next few generations too.
- drekk 5y ago
  Do you support the US paying reparations? UK? France? Belgium? Just curious, asking for hundreds of millions of civilian casualties. I support Russia paying reparations to Ukraine if we're going to be consistent about it when the victims are, for example, Yemeni
  - downrightmike 5y ago
    Why would the US? If the US hadn't helped in WW2, they'd all be Germany now.
    - ttybird2 5y ago
      They are talking about US/UK/etc paying reparations to middle eastern countries.
sidibe 5y ago
Yup, one of the nice things about todays internet with stuff like Translate and Google Lens is you can go and see for yourself. I thought Pikabu.ru was a relatively liberal social media site and now they've all rallied around the flag and subscribe to and spout out all of Putin's talking points and even now move Kadyrov

HarryHirsch 5y ago

One wonders: how many Americans would have supported a shooting war in Cuba, had it come to it in 1962.

dane-pgp 5y ago
The Cuba situation was perhaps a little more complicated because the US implemented a naval blockade of the island (disingenuously labelled a "quarantine"), which, to many, didn't look like an act of war. Therefore if the Soviets had tried to exercise their sovereign right to dock their ships at a Cuban port, and the US navy had opened fire, then there might have been uncertainty about whether the Soviet breaching of the blockade was an act of aggression that the US was merely defending itself against. No such ambiguity exists in Russia's recent invasion of Ukraine, despite their label of "special military operation". Their covert invasion (and effective military occupation) of Crimea and the separatist regions are better examples of ambiguous acts of war, though.
zardo 5y ago
They'd probably have been mostly concerned with how to avoid radiation poisoning, and which of their friends and family survived the nuclear exchange.
NoPie 5y ago
How many Cubans would have supported it today? Cubans today are totally unhappy with their socialistic government. They would have definitely be better off if their government had fallen. On the other hand, democracy cannot be established by weapons. People need to desire it themselves first.
akhmatova 5y ago
A similar percentage or higher, given the climate at the time.

wrp 5y ago

If you are interested in trying to understand the Russian perspective, I'd suggest the stuff from Richard Sakwa, like his book Frontline Ukraine: Crisis in the Borderlands.[1] Sakwa is a Russia specialist and seems to have put more effort that anyone else into understanding how Russians view the Ukraine situation. Pro-Ukrainian writers have accused him of being an apologist for Russia, but I think it's more accurate to say that he tries to be objectively critical and so doesn't support popular narratives. [1] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/24717077-frontline-ukraine https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/24717077-frontline-uk...

akhmatova 5y ago
Pro-Ukrainian writers have accused him of being an apologist for Russia There is a certain slipperiness to Sakwa's language that makes it clear where is his sympathies rest -- and that he is not merely reporting "how the average Russian citizen sees it". For example, the title he chose for this opinion piece, put out just a few weeks before the orchestrated murder campaign that some are calling a "war": Whisper it, but Putin has a point in Ukraine as buttressed by the nauseating content of that piece are precisely what brigs the "apologist" description, applied to Sakwa, into sharp focus.
- wrp 5y ago
  Here is that January 25 piece with its "nauseating content." https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/whisper-it-but-putin-has-a-point-in-ukraine https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/whisper-it-but-putin-has... Also, here is a more detailed piece from March 10. https://prruk.org/the-march-of-folly-resumed-russia-ukraine-and-the-west/ https://prruk.org/the-march-of-folly-resumed-russia-ukraine-...
  - akhmatova 5y ago
    Here is that January 25 piece with its "nauseating content." If you can think of better terminology to describe such obsequious blather as To protect its own security, Russia desires a neutral, friendly, multilingual Ukraine please let us know.

amai 5y ago

It is illegal in Russia to be against the war. So what outcome do you expect from the polls?

akhmatova 5y ago

The only slightly lower numbers for support within the country (73 percent) for the U.S.'s (none too dissimilar) invasion of Iraq in 2003 (as posted by another commenter) are actually quite important, for context. Given that the NYT was perhaps the most notable of journalistic cheerleaders for that debacle -- a shameful episode in its history that it now "regrets" -- their failure to mention this context should not be surprising.