5 ms·

It looks like you guys use AWS. Why not just use RDS if you don’t want to deal with database management?

epolanski 5y ago
Some engineering teams seem to take overcomplication always one step too far. It's very hard to estimate future work and overconfident engineers consistently downplay the costs.
- ignoramous 5y ago
  I'm not sure why you're being downvoted. You're right: running databases isn't for every team! Reach out for a managed database if you can. But tailscale isn't some random group of engs. They've probably got the chops to pull off literally anything they want to. I mean TFA casually mentions online cross-database transfers, multiple zero-downtime schema migrations, inspecting litestream's replication code for feasibility, deftly modifying sqlite WAL checkpoints... all in one breath.
  - jeffffff 5y ago
    if they're this talented, is their time really best spent on dba work rather than improving the product?
    - ignoramous 5y ago
      > is their time really best spent on dba work... It seems to me that tailscale engs want to avoid DBA work but also not use managed offerings, and so, they're comfortable paying the costs they have to (such as multiple migrations). > ...rather than improving the product? Well, you'd guess they want to be able to continually improve their already credible product too. When TFA points out that zero vendor lock-in and hassle-free, local end-to-end tests are non-negotiable, I think it is for this reason. ---- > if they're this talented, is their time really best spent on... From: https://tailscale.com/blog/go-linker/ https://tailscale.com/blog/go-linker/ "People are often surprised and sometimes horrified when they learn that Tailscale maintains its own fork of the Go toolchain. Tailscale is a small startup. Isn't that a horrible distraction, a flagrant burning of innovation tokens?" "Maybe. But the thing is, you write code with the engineers you have." "We had a problem: We kept crashing on iOS, and in addition to being awful, it was preventing us from adding features." "Another team might have decided to cut even more features on iOS to try to achieve stability, or limited in some way the size of the tailnet that iOS could interact with." "Another team might have radically redesigned the data structures to squeeze every last drop out of them." "Another team might have rewritten the entire thing in Rust or C." "Another team might have decided to accept the crashes and attempted to mitigate the pain by making re-establishment of connections faster." "Another team might have decided to just live with it and put their focus elsewhere." "The Tailscale team has Go expertise, spanning the standard library to the toolchain to the runtime to the ecosystem. It’s an asset, and it would be foolish not to use it when the occasion arises. And the fun thing about working on low level, performance-sensitive code is that that occasion arises with surprising frequency." "Blog posts about how people solve their problems are fun and interesting, but they must always be taken with a healthy dose of context. There may be no other startups in existence for which working on the Go linker would be a sensible choice, but it was for us."
      - jeffffff 5y ago
        > When TFA points out that zero vendor lock-in and hassle-free, local end-to-end tests are non-negotiable, I think it is for this reason. if zero vendor lock-in and hassle-free, local end-to-end tests are non-negotiable, why are they using s3? migrating to another s3 compatible backend would be similar in effort to migrating from aurora mysql or postgres to another managed mysql or postgres service or to self-hosted mysql or postgres
        ignoramous 5y ago
        > migrating to another s3 compatible backend would be similar in effort to migrating from aurora mysql or postgres to another managed mysql or postgres service or to self-hosted mysql or postgres You may be right. I have no experience migrating litestream but from the docs (https://litestream.io/guides/ https://litestream.io/guides/) it is literally cp'ing files from S3 to wherever and exec'ing one of these one-liners (of course, the devil is in the details): litestream restore -o my.db s3://BUCKETNAME/PATHNAME litestream restore -o my.db abs://STORAGEACCOUNT@CONTAINERNAME/PATH litestream restore -o my.db gcs://BUCKET/PATH litestream restore -o my.db s3://SPACENAME.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/db litestream restore -o my.db s3://BUCKETNAME.us-east-1.linodeobjects.com/db litestream restore -o my.db sftp://USER:PASSWORD@HOST:PORT/PATH
        benbjohnson 5y ago
        Litestream author here. Yeah, you're basically right but it's simpler than a DB migration. No need to copy the old data over. You can remove the `-litestream` metadata directory and point it at a new replication destination and it'll automatically re-snapshot the database begin replication.
        tptacek 5y ago
        First, S3 and a SQL database aren't comparable. But I think you're bringing up S3 because they're using Litestream to ship WAL frames to S3. Go read the Litestream documentation; Litestream syncs to basically anything. They don't need to "migrate to another S3 compatible backend"; they can migrate to almost anything that can save a file. It's a super confusing argument regardless, because the industry is lousy with "S3-compatible backends".
    - epolanski 5y ago
      Some examples: they could get rid of that pointless bootstrap on their website, they are shoving almost 1.5 MBs for a single font alone on their main page and their HTML semantics are nowhere to be found. This will all impact their bounce rate, accessibility and SEO. I just don't believe the tale of "such skilled engineering teams" which don't show that in their products but blogposts.
      - blizz017 5y ago
        What if I told you that the product engineering team is almost never the same team maintaining the website; hell it’s likely the website is contracted out and maintained by the marketing team.
      - nooorofe 5y ago
        do you have doubts those people are skilled? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Fitzpatrick https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Fitzpatrick https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21727925 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21727925
eyelidlessness 5y ago
Disclaimer: I hate doing ops, but I’ve been in a position to actively hate doing it fairly regularly for several years of my career. My perspective is as a person who doesn’t want to deal with any of this kind of stuff. So I’ve probably failed to acquire knowledge which would make it less frictionful for me, purely from lack of interest. RDS has some significant downsides which I would personally consider no go if I were in a position to evaluate it. The one which stands out as particularly painful from my past experience is… it’s excruciatingly slow to provision or make configuration changes. Like lose whole days of work to a few iterations of trial and error slow. Combined with AWS’ sprawling and inscrutable set of authorization and configuration options, the weird idiosyncrasies between most of their offerings, and the absolutely opaque naming applied to most of those offerings… trying to use RDS effectively as a managed database service felt more to me like becoming a full time ops professional.
- lillecarl 5y ago
  Idk, I just use the Terraform module and set the Helm values on whatever should consume the db with whatever I get back from the module then call it a day. Then again, I'm not scaling big at all.

Some engineering teams seem to take overcomplication always one step too far. It's very hard to estimate future work and overconfident engineers consistently downplay the costs.

ignoramous 5y ago
I'm not sure why you're being downvoted. You're right: running databases isn't for every team! Reach out for a managed database if you can. But tailscale isn't some random group of engs. They've probably got the chops to pull off literally anything they want to. I mean TFA casually mentions online cross-database transfers, multiple zero-downtime schema migrations, inspecting litestream's replication code for feasibility, deftly modifying sqlite WAL checkpoints... all in one breath.
- jeffffff 5y ago
  if they're this talented, is their time really best spent on dba work rather than improving the product?
  - ignoramous 5y ago
    > is their time really best spent on dba work... It seems to me that tailscale engs want to avoid DBA work but also not use managed offerings, and so, they're comfortable paying the costs they have to (such as multiple migrations). > ...rather than improving the product? Well, you'd guess they want to be able to continually improve their already credible product too. When TFA points out that zero vendor lock-in and hassle-free, local end-to-end tests are non-negotiable, I think it is for this reason. ---- > if they're this talented, is their time really best spent on... From: https://tailscale.com/blog/go-linker/ https://tailscale.com/blog/go-linker/ "People are often surprised and sometimes horrified when they learn that Tailscale maintains its own fork of the Go toolchain. Tailscale is a small startup. Isn't that a horrible distraction, a flagrant burning of innovation tokens?" "Maybe. But the thing is, you write code with the engineers you have." "We had a problem: We kept crashing on iOS, and in addition to being awful, it was preventing us from adding features." "Another team might have decided to cut even more features on iOS to try to achieve stability, or limited in some way the size of the tailnet that iOS could interact with." "Another team might have radically redesigned the data structures to squeeze every last drop out of them." "Another team might have rewritten the entire thing in Rust or C." "Another team might have decided to accept the crashes and attempted to mitigate the pain by making re-establishment of connections faster." "Another team might have decided to just live with it and put their focus elsewhere." "The Tailscale team has Go expertise, spanning the standard library to the toolchain to the runtime to the ecosystem. It’s an asset, and it would be foolish not to use it when the occasion arises. And the fun thing about working on low level, performance-sensitive code is that that occasion arises with surprising frequency." "Blog posts about how people solve their problems are fun and interesting, but they must always be taken with a healthy dose of context. There may be no other startups in existence for which working on the Go linker would be a sensible choice, but it was for us."
    - jeffffff 5y ago
      > When TFA points out that zero vendor lock-in and hassle-free, local end-to-end tests are non-negotiable, I think it is for this reason. if zero vendor lock-in and hassle-free, local end-to-end tests are non-negotiable, why are they using s3? migrating to another s3 compatible backend would be similar in effort to migrating from aurora mysql or postgres to another managed mysql or postgres service or to self-hosted mysql or postgres
      - ignoramous 5y ago
        > migrating to another s3 compatible backend would be similar in effort to migrating from aurora mysql or postgres to another managed mysql or postgres service or to self-hosted mysql or postgres You may be right. I have no experience migrating litestream but from the docs (https://litestream.io/guides/ https://litestream.io/guides/) it is literally cp'ing files from S3 to wherever and exec'ing one of these one-liners (of course, the devil is in the details): litestream restore -o my.db s3://BUCKETNAME/PATHNAME litestream restore -o my.db abs://STORAGEACCOUNT@CONTAINERNAME/PATH litestream restore -o my.db gcs://BUCKET/PATH litestream restore -o my.db s3://SPACENAME.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/db litestream restore -o my.db s3://BUCKETNAME.us-east-1.linodeobjects.com/db litestream restore -o my.db sftp://USER:PASSWORD@HOST:PORT/PATH
        benbjohnson 5y ago
        Litestream author here. Yeah, you're basically right but it's simpler than a DB migration. No need to copy the old data over. You can remove the `-litestream` metadata directory and point it at a new replication destination and it'll automatically re-snapshot the database begin replication.
      - tptacek 5y ago
        First, S3 and a SQL database aren't comparable. But I think you're bringing up S3 because they're using Litestream to ship WAL frames to S3. Go read the Litestream documentation; Litestream syncs to basically anything. They don't need to "migrate to another S3 compatible backend"; they can migrate to almost anything that can save a file. It's a super confusing argument regardless, because the industry is lousy with "S3-compatible backends".
  - epolanski 5y ago
    Some examples: they could get rid of that pointless bootstrap on their website, they are shoving almost 1.5 MBs for a single font alone on their main page and their HTML semantics are nowhere to be found. This will all impact their bounce rate, accessibility and SEO. I just don't believe the tale of "such skilled engineering teams" which don't show that in their products but blogposts.
    - blizz017 5y ago
      What if I told you that the product engineering team is almost never the same team maintaining the website; hell it’s likely the website is contracted out and maintained by the marketing team.
    - nooorofe 5y ago
      do you have doubts those people are skilled? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Fitzpatrick https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Fitzpatrick https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21727925 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21727925

eyelidlessness 5y ago

Disclaimer: I hate doing ops, but I’ve been in a position to actively hate doing it fairly regularly for several years of my career. My perspective is as a person who doesn’t want to deal with any of this kind of stuff. So I’ve probably failed to acquire knowledge which would make it less frictionful for me, purely from lack of interest. RDS has some significant downsides which I would personally consider no go if I were in a position to evaluate it. The one which stands out as particularly painful from my past experience is… it’s excruciatingly slow to provision or make configuration changes. Like lose whole days of work to a few iterations of trial and error slow. Combined with AWS’ sprawling and inscrutable set of authorization and configuration options, the weird idiosyncrasies between most of their offerings, and the absolutely opaque naming applied to most of those offerings… trying to use RDS effectively as a managed database service felt more to me like becoming a full time ops professional.

lillecarl 5y ago
Idk, I just use the Terraform module and set the Helm values on whatever should consume the db with whatever I get back from the module then call it a day. Then again, I'm not scaling big at all.