4 ms·

Such things are indicative of the general zeitgeist in the society. If most people were hard workers, knowing how to count money and expected accountability, yo

Such things are indicative of the general zeitgeist in the society. If most people were hard workers, knowing how to count money and expected accountability, you would see more sentencing for embezzlement and nobody would care about some random dude's shitposting. Sadly this isn't the case in the West anymore. Most people come from a rather meaningless and mind-numbing job, turn on the TV and expect to be entertained. And seeing your neighbor from a different political camp punched in the face is the oldest form of entertainment the humanity came up with. Look at many social justice programs now: "group X has been suffering historically, so let's now make group Y suffer in some other way to make it fair" as opposed to "let people from X and Y build shit together for the sake of prosperity". This way will inevitably bring poverty, people will eventually wake up and start asking the right questions about the dropping quality of life and affordability of assets, but it can take decades more of arguing on who's shitpost was more offensive.

heavenlyblue 5y ago
> Look at many social justice programs now: "group X has been suffering historically, so let's now make group Y suffer in some other way to make it fair" as opposed to "let people from X and Y build shit together for the sake of prosperity". Citation needed.
- endominus 5y ago
  It's not especially hard to find examples. A couple off the top of my head, as I was looking into the education system in the States recently. "African-Americans have had worse access to educational resources, so let's shut down gifted programs for everyone." https://edition.cnn.com/2021/10/08/us/new-york-gifted-and-talented-education-program/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2021/10/08/us/new-york-gifted-and-ta... "The population of certain high-status schools is not demographically identical to the population at large, so let's stop using objective criteria in university admissions." https://www.cbsnews.com/news/harvard-test-optional-sat-act-scores-college-admission/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/harvard-test-optional-sat-act-s... "Girls do worse in math class than boys, so let's change the curriculum to be less about math and more about social justice." https://www.independent.org/news/article.asp?id=13658 https://www.independent.org/news/article.asp?id=13658
  - heavenlyblue 5y ago
    Your abstracts do not even correspond to the content of the articles, how can I take you seriously after this? The last article doesn’t mention word “girls” or “female” at least once on the page.
    - endominus 5y ago
      In what sense do they not correspond? The gifted program was being shut down because schools like Stuyvesant admitted very few black students. See, for example, Forbes' take on the subject; https://www.forbes.com/sites/nataliewexler/2019/08/28/to-address-inequity-lets-do-more-than-eliminate-gifted-and-talented-programs/?sh=75fa37fa55ae https://www.forbes.com/sites/nataliewexler/2019/08/28/to-add... Likewise, there is an ongoing court case about Yale (which is also spilling over into discussions about other schools) discriminating against students by race. See https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/13/yale-illegally-discriminates-against-white-and-asian-students-justice-department-says.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/13/yale-illegally-discriminates.... They have been trying to transition to more subjective methods of student filtering for a while now to hide this better. Rather than include an entire bibliography of the context behind the change, I just linked to that change being enacted, since that's what I considered the important thing being asked for (the proof of systems being made more unfair/objectively worse). I can't give you bulletproof explanations of why these changes are being made - no one can. No one has come out to explicitly say, "We're changing the math curriculum because [group] is doing worse and we need to tilt the field in their favor." It's always couched in "better world" language - it's more just, more equitable, allows students to learn better, etc. But the claim was that social justice reforms are more focused on destroying something providing value to a privileged group than trying to come up with ways for everyone to achieve better outcomes together. That's what these changes, in general, show. Instead of having the opportunity to go to a specialized gifted program, even if it's harder for people of some races to get in, no one gets one. Instead of auditable, comparable, and clearly defined criteria for college acceptance, it's entirely subjective and based on the Admissions Office's biases. Instead of a math class that teaches actual math, even if some students find that boring or difficult, we have whatever California is doing.
- zdragnar 5y ago
  Why? It's trivial to find examples. This is a hot button topic in the US- in particular, the now-in-vogue phrase "equity" replacing "equality". Assuming zero-sum scenarios (such as hiring or school admissions) this is the basic premise behind affirmative action, and is why Ivy league schools (such as Harvard) and state schools (such as California) attempt to suppress Asian and white admittance in favor of black and brown: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/15/us/university-of-california-admissions.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/15/us/university-of-californ... In other cases, it is directing tax payer money away from general funds towards specific groups: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-03-29/palm-springs-supports-guaranteed-income-program-for-transgender-community-members https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-03-29/palm-spr... https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/02/25/reparations-bill-congress-support/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/02/25/reparations... Finally, there are times where subordinates are treated differently for the purposes of promoting the new in-groups: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10663977/Clover-Park-school-district-passes-policy-consider-race-punishing-students.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10663977/Clover-Par... (sorry, I couldn't quickly find a better article than the daily mail, though the video speaks for itself). The most particularly pernicious idea to become a meme is "decentering whiteness". The net result is that contributions from white people are devalued and deprioritized, effectively dehumanizing white people as though they were nothing more than the sum of their skin color. Examples from various organizations preaching it: https://nonprofitquarterly.org/decentering-whiteness-building-for-the-movement-tasks-ahead/ https://nonprofitquarterly.org/decentering-whiteness-buildin... https://www.uua.org/worship/words/decentering-whiteness-worship-webinar https://www.uua.org/worship/words/decentering-whiteness-wors... https://blogs.shipleyschool.org/decentering-whiteness-at-home-and-in-your-family https://blogs.shipleyschool.org/decentering-whiteness-at-hom... https://www.gettingsmart.com/2021/11/11/decentering-whiteness-from-our-american-schools/ https://www.gettingsmart.com/2021/11/11/decentering-whitenes... https://journals.aps.org/prper/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevPhysEducRes.18.010119 https://journals.aps.org/prper/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevPhysE... There are no shortage of examples like these in classrooms, workplaces, churches and government services and training, expanding into every facet of society at an increasing rate. The core idea- that many of these things don't need to be structured around a particular culture- is fine. The implementation details, however, rarely are.

heavenlyblue 5y ago

> Look at many social justice programs now: "group X has been suffering historically, so let's now make group Y suffer in some other way to make it fair" as opposed to "let people from X and Y build shit together for the sake of prosperity". Citation needed.

endominus 5y ago
It's not especially hard to find examples. A couple off the top of my head, as I was looking into the education system in the States recently. "African-Americans have had worse access to educational resources, so let's shut down gifted programs for everyone." https://edition.cnn.com/2021/10/08/us/new-york-gifted-and-talented-education-program/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2021/10/08/us/new-york-gifted-and-ta... "The population of certain high-status schools is not demographically identical to the population at large, so let's stop using objective criteria in university admissions." https://www.cbsnews.com/news/harvard-test-optional-sat-act-scores-college-admission/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/harvard-test-optional-sat-act-s... "Girls do worse in math class than boys, so let's change the curriculum to be less about math and more about social justice." https://www.independent.org/news/article.asp?id=13658 https://www.independent.org/news/article.asp?id=13658
- heavenlyblue 5y ago
  Your abstracts do not even correspond to the content of the articles, how can I take you seriously after this? The last article doesn’t mention word “girls” or “female” at least once on the page.
  - endominus 5y ago
    In what sense do they not correspond? The gifted program was being shut down because schools like Stuyvesant admitted very few black students. See, for example, Forbes' take on the subject; https://www.forbes.com/sites/nataliewexler/2019/08/28/to-address-inequity-lets-do-more-than-eliminate-gifted-and-talented-programs/?sh=75fa37fa55ae https://www.forbes.com/sites/nataliewexler/2019/08/28/to-add... Likewise, there is an ongoing court case about Yale (which is also spilling over into discussions about other schools) discriminating against students by race. See https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/13/yale-illegally-discriminates-against-white-and-asian-students-justice-department-says.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/13/yale-illegally-discriminates.... They have been trying to transition to more subjective methods of student filtering for a while now to hide this better. Rather than include an entire bibliography of the context behind the change, I just linked to that change being enacted, since that's what I considered the important thing being asked for (the proof of systems being made more unfair/objectively worse). I can't give you bulletproof explanations of why these changes are being made - no one can. No one has come out to explicitly say, "We're changing the math curriculum because [group] is doing worse and we need to tilt the field in their favor." It's always couched in "better world" language - it's more just, more equitable, allows students to learn better, etc. But the claim was that social justice reforms are more focused on destroying something providing value to a privileged group than trying to come up with ways for everyone to achieve better outcomes together. That's what these changes, in general, show. Instead of having the opportunity to go to a specialized gifted program, even if it's harder for people of some races to get in, no one gets one. Instead of auditable, comparable, and clearly defined criteria for college acceptance, it's entirely subjective and based on the Admissions Office's biases. Instead of a math class that teaches actual math, even if some students find that boring or difficult, we have whatever California is doing.
zdragnar 5y ago
Why? It's trivial to find examples. This is a hot button topic in the US- in particular, the now-in-vogue phrase "equity" replacing "equality". Assuming zero-sum scenarios (such as hiring or school admissions) this is the basic premise behind affirmative action, and is why Ivy league schools (such as Harvard) and state schools (such as California) attempt to suppress Asian and white admittance in favor of black and brown: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/15/us/university-of-california-admissions.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/15/us/university-of-californ... In other cases, it is directing tax payer money away from general funds towards specific groups: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-03-29/palm-springs-supports-guaranteed-income-program-for-transgender-community-members https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-03-29/palm-spr... https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/02/25/reparations-bill-congress-support/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/02/25/reparations... Finally, there are times where subordinates are treated differently for the purposes of promoting the new in-groups: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10663977/Clover-Park-school-district-passes-policy-consider-race-punishing-students.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10663977/Clover-Par... (sorry, I couldn't quickly find a better article than the daily mail, though the video speaks for itself). The most particularly pernicious idea to become a meme is "decentering whiteness". The net result is that contributions from white people are devalued and deprioritized, effectively dehumanizing white people as though they were nothing more than the sum of their skin color. Examples from various organizations preaching it: https://nonprofitquarterly.org/decentering-whiteness-building-for-the-movement-tasks-ahead/ https://nonprofitquarterly.org/decentering-whiteness-buildin... https://www.uua.org/worship/words/decentering-whiteness-worship-webinar https://www.uua.org/worship/words/decentering-whiteness-wors... https://blogs.shipleyschool.org/decentering-whiteness-at-home-and-in-your-family https://blogs.shipleyschool.org/decentering-whiteness-at-hom... https://www.gettingsmart.com/2021/11/11/decentering-whiteness-from-our-american-schools/ https://www.gettingsmart.com/2021/11/11/decentering-whitenes... https://journals.aps.org/prper/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevPhysEducRes.18.010119 https://journals.aps.org/prper/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevPhysE... There are no shortage of examples like these in classrooms, workplaces, churches and government services and training, expanding into every facet of society at an increasing rate. The core idea- that many of these things don't need to be structured around a particular culture- is fine. The implementation details, however, rarely are.