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The argument isn't that they can't poke the bear. The argument is that if you poke a bear, you shouldn't be surprised when it comes after you. And expecting the

by yucky 5y ago

The argument isn't that they can't poke the bear. The argument is that if you poke a bear, you shouldn't be surprised when it comes after you. And expecting the rest of the world to wonder why the bear would respond to a poke, is silly. Bears do what bears do.

SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
> The argument isn't that they can't poke the bear. The argument is that if you poke a bear, you shouldn't be surprised when it comes after you. Russia has poked the Ukrainian bear, and now the bear is coming after Russia. Bears do what bears do. If an argument works, it works both ways. Anything else is propagandistic.
- yucky 5y ago
  Sure, after all Ukraine has a right to defend itself. But we need to stop pretending nobody knows why Russia invaded. We knew exactly what they would do, so the question is...why did we think this was a good idea? That seems to be the question going largely unanswered.
  - cuteboy19 5y ago
    The answer is simple: imperialism. Moscow cannot deal with the fact that Ukraine does not want to be vassal state of a dying has been empire
    - yucky 5y ago
      >The answer is simple: imperialism. Who is being imperial though? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/History_of_NATO_enlargement.svg/1024px-History_of_NATO_enlargement.svg.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/Hi...
  - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
    > But we need to stop pretending nobody knows why Russia invaded. No, that's not accurate. There doesn't seem to be any "nobody knows" sentiment, the other responses from cuteboy19 and watwut cover it well. There is no need to throw doubt here. But you're right, in that the surprise is that Russia thought that it would be a good idea.
  - watwut 5y ago
    Yeah, we do. Nato expansion is NOT the reason. > why did we think this was a good idea? I thought it is good idea to join NATO, because then NATO has to help you defend if/when Russia gets expansive again. Or someone else, but realistically it is Russia who is most likely to do it.
    - yucky 5y ago
      > Nato expansion is NOT the reason. Ahem - https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/02/15/the-origins-of-the-ukraine-crisis-and-how-conflict-can-be-avoided/ https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/02/15/the-origins-of-... This has been widely known for 25 years that it would lead to war. This is also why the Russian border states not threatening to join NATO are not under attack. Only Ukraine. Look at this map https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/History_of_NATO_enlargement.svg/1024px-History_of_NATO_enlargement.svg.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/Hi... and ask yourself why wouldn't Russia feel this as an evergrowing encroachment by their enemies. Keeping in mind that NATO = US Military.
watwut 5y ago
The contra argument is that bear can and will come at you whether you poke it or not. I fact, you can be hanging out in forrest, minding own business, actively avoiding bear and he/she will come at you to attack you. Bears do what bears do. No reason to make up feel good rationales about how attacked people actually deserves it nor how the bear attack was actually caused by a Wolf over the next hill.

by yucky 5y ago

SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago

> The argument isn't that they can't poke the bear. The argument is that if you poke a bear, you shouldn't be surprised when it comes after you. Russia has poked the Ukrainian bear, and now the bear is coming after Russia. Bears do what bears do. If an argument works, it works both ways. Anything else is propagandistic.

yucky 5y ago
Sure, after all Ukraine has a right to defend itself. But we need to stop pretending nobody knows why Russia invaded. We knew exactly what they would do, so the question is...why did we think this was a good idea? That seems to be the question going largely unanswered.
- cuteboy19 5y ago
  The answer is simple: imperialism. Moscow cannot deal with the fact that Ukraine does not want to be vassal state of a dying has been empire
  - yucky 5y ago
    >The answer is simple: imperialism. Who is being imperial though? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/History_of_NATO_enlargement.svg/1024px-History_of_NATO_enlargement.svg.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/Hi...
- SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
  > But we need to stop pretending nobody knows why Russia invaded. No, that's not accurate. There doesn't seem to be any "nobody knows" sentiment, the other responses from cuteboy19 and watwut cover it well. There is no need to throw doubt here. But you're right, in that the surprise is that Russia thought that it would be a good idea.
- watwut 5y ago
  Yeah, we do. Nato expansion is NOT the reason. > why did we think this was a good idea? I thought it is good idea to join NATO, because then NATO has to help you defend if/when Russia gets expansive again. Or someone else, but realistically it is Russia who is most likely to do it.
  - yucky 5y ago
    > Nato expansion is NOT the reason. Ahem - https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/02/15/the-origins-of-the-ukraine-crisis-and-how-conflict-can-be-avoided/ https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/02/15/the-origins-of-... This has been widely known for 25 years that it would lead to war. This is also why the Russian border states not threatening to join NATO are not under attack. Only Ukraine. Look at this map https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/History_of_NATO_enlargement.svg/1024px-History_of_NATO_enlargement.svg.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/Hi... and ask yourself why wouldn't Russia feel this as an evergrowing encroachment by their enemies. Keeping in mind that NATO = US Military.

watwut 5y ago

The contra argument is that bear can and will come at you whether you poke it or not. I fact, you can be hanging out in forrest, minding own business, actively avoiding bear and he/she will come at you to attack you. Bears do what bears do. No reason to make up feel good rationales about how attacked people actually deserves it nor how the bear attack was actually caused by a Wolf over the next hill.