6 ms·

This is so very true. Another extremely good signal are people that won’t give up easily. Tenacity, grit, whatever you want to call it. All that trumps degre

This is so very true. Another extremely good signal are people that won’t give up easily. Tenacity, grit, whatever you want to call it. All that trumps degrees and knowledge, because all you have to do is spark the interest of this kind of person and they will find a way because they just won’t stop until they do.

Trasmatta 5y ago
I've helped mentor CS students and bootcamp students before (as well as junior devs and interns), and I agree. Asking for help is good, but certain types of people think that learning to program is just a matter of learning all the steps and then doing it, when in reality it requires a more meta level skill of being able to tenaciously pursue a problem until you solve it. You should be asking for help along the way, but you need to have a drive to figure out the problem yourself, regardless of what help others are or are not able to give. Sometimes students just need a lift up and then they find that ability along the way, but it just doesn't seem to ever surface in others.
- andai 5y ago
  There's something that's been bugging me I've been trying to put into words. Lately I've been teaching programming to high schoolers and college students, and I kind of feel like, the sort of people who want to pay someone to teach them rather than figuring it out by themselves are going to have a distinct disadvantage. Maybe it's just a case of "I did things the hard way so everyone else should too" -- my path was certainly not efficient! But I have to wonder if they lack that "grit", and if it can be taught or if is something innate. Here's another example which might illustrate the same mindset: I go to IRC as a last resort, because I don't want to ask anything I could have solved in a few minutes by myself (or worse, that I could have found on Google!) But when I do go to IRC, I formulate my question very precisely, explain the facts, the steps I took, my hypothesis... and 9 times out of 10, just the act of writing the question out causes the solution to become obvious! (Or reveals something I forgot to try, which then solves the problem...)
  - Trasmatta 5y ago
    I definitely see what you're saying. I think many people come to programming with the mindset that it's just like math. Memorize the formulas and the rules, and then get the right answer. So they just want somebody to teach them the formula so they can memorize it. But that's just not how writing software works.
    - drewcoo 5y ago
      Actually, when I got my math degree I noticed the same two sets of people. The memorizers and the ones who enjoyed solving problems. Software works just like math (where math is doing proofs, often with new things you're not familiar with).
  - itronitron 5y ago
    I recommend showing them how to solve various types of problems that developers typically encounter, setting up a project in an IDE, cloning a repo and building it, finding API docs for the specific version being used, etc... That way they know how to get past roadblocks when they encounter them. I'm currently taking a class, which is not programming related, and it's maddening because the teacher and course material do a very poor job of covering the basics, so from my perspective as an outsider it is near impossible to figure out how everything relates. It's possible that your current students need a general overview of how all the pieces interrelate before they can internalize and build their own knowledge.
- sergiotapia 5y ago
  This is why I don't buy into the "anyone can code" mindset. More than being some kind of super genius, to be a successful engineer you need to have the stones to face your stupidity every single day. Most jobs have clear a to b to c to d steps. You know when you're done. With software dev you faceplant almost every couple of hours until you finally succeed and get that high. Then you start all over again with a new ticket. Most people have no desire to live that every day. They are happier in excel massaging spreadsheets.
mountainriver 5y ago
I really like grit over energy. So much of software is just about grit and I see it as a distinguishing factor among the engineers I mentor. The ability to sit with hard problems and continue to be curious in the face of pain and adversity is a very important skill.
- dgb23 5y ago
  IMO that's the easy part, the hard part is to do all the boring stuff around that. Both of these things require different types of grit or energy or what ever and some freedom and organizational skills, but the tricky problems are the most exciting and motivating.

Trasmatta 5y ago

I've helped mentor CS students and bootcamp students before (as well as junior devs and interns), and I agree. Asking for help is good, but certain types of people think that learning to program is just a matter of learning all the steps and then doing it, when in reality it requires a more meta level skill of being able to tenaciously pursue a problem until you solve it. You should be asking for help along the way, but you need to have a drive to figure out the problem yourself, regardless of what help others are or are not able to give. Sometimes students just need a lift up and then they find that ability along the way, but it just doesn't seem to ever surface in others.

andai 5y ago
There's something that's been bugging me I've been trying to put into words. Lately I've been teaching programming to high schoolers and college students, and I kind of feel like, the sort of people who want to pay someone to teach them rather than figuring it out by themselves are going to have a distinct disadvantage. Maybe it's just a case of "I did things the hard way so everyone else should too" -- my path was certainly not efficient! But I have to wonder if they lack that "grit", and if it can be taught or if is something innate. Here's another example which might illustrate the same mindset: I go to IRC as a last resort, because I don't want to ask anything I could have solved in a few minutes by myself (or worse, that I could have found on Google!) But when I do go to IRC, I formulate my question very precisely, explain the facts, the steps I took, my hypothesis... and 9 times out of 10, just the act of writing the question out causes the solution to become obvious! (Or reveals something I forgot to try, which then solves the problem...)
- Trasmatta 5y ago
  I definitely see what you're saying. I think many people come to programming with the mindset that it's just like math. Memorize the formulas and the rules, and then get the right answer. So they just want somebody to teach them the formula so they can memorize it. But that's just not how writing software works.
  - drewcoo 5y ago
    Actually, when I got my math degree I noticed the same two sets of people. The memorizers and the ones who enjoyed solving problems. Software works just like math (where math is doing proofs, often with new things you're not familiar with).
- itronitron 5y ago
  I recommend showing them how to solve various types of problems that developers typically encounter, setting up a project in an IDE, cloning a repo and building it, finding API docs for the specific version being used, etc... That way they know how to get past roadblocks when they encounter them. I'm currently taking a class, which is not programming related, and it's maddening because the teacher and course material do a very poor job of covering the basics, so from my perspective as an outsider it is near impossible to figure out how everything relates. It's possible that your current students need a general overview of how all the pieces interrelate before they can internalize and build their own knowledge.
sergiotapia 5y ago
This is why I don't buy into the "anyone can code" mindset. More than being some kind of super genius, to be a successful engineer you need to have the stones to face your stupidity every single day. Most jobs have clear a to b to c to d steps. You know when you're done. With software dev you faceplant almost every couple of hours until you finally succeed and get that high. Then you start all over again with a new ticket. Most people have no desire to live that every day. They are happier in excel massaging spreadsheets.

mountainriver 5y ago

I really like grit over energy. So much of software is just about grit and I see it as a distinguishing factor among the engineers I mentor. The ability to sit with hard problems and continue to be curious in the face of pain and adversity is a very important skill.

dgb23 5y ago
IMO that's the easy part, the hard part is to do all the boring stuff around that. Both of these things require different types of grit or energy or what ever and some freedom and organizational skills, but the tricky problems are the most exciting and motivating.