4 ms·

Cases like this you really need to be extremely specific about what powerful means. I think a lot of left leaning folks could agree with such statements but mad

Cases like this you really need to be extremely specific about what powerful means. I think a lot of left leaning folks could agree with such statements but made too broadly it can be taken a number of different ways. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone pro union who'd say unions have too much influence or sway in the lives of US citizens. Most workers don't have union representation and unions don't have much say in worker pay in a great majority of sectors. Especially where it could help like warehouse work which has seen wages plummet with the advent of Amazon. Now, compare that to two unions which are extremely powerful and not always good for the public or their members! 1) Teachers unions. Extremely powerful (at least Oregon where I know about them), but they don't necessarily help teachers! Pay is low because they haven't flexed their power and are fully at the whim of taxes. Since their funding is low the most teacher's union can guarantee their workers is that they will have a consistent job. Which sucks! Also, when COVID occurred there was little room for teachers to get a say as to how classes would be virtual, when kids would be back in schools, or when and how the mask mandate would be lifted. Supposedly a union would help! 2) Police unions: super strong, extremely political, extremely effective. Also nigh impossible to fire a cop unless they offend their union or a fellow cop. Rarely do police budgets ever get cut or does cop pay go down. Do most folks want this? Do most people in New York want their police force to have a budget larger than military of a mid sized country? Probably not? But hey, they're too powerful to do anything about.

gruez 5y ago
>Do most people in New York want their police force to have a budget larger than military of a mid sized country? Probably not? Pareto distribution strikes again! Apparently new york city has a GDP that ranks 15 in the world, above mexico[1][2] and ranks 59 in the world in terms of population[3], so the fact that new york exceeds "a mid sized country" (median?) in some statistic isn't surprising. If you want to make the argument that the US is over-policed, use some statistic like officers per 100,000 people or something. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_New_York_City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_New_York_City [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependen...
- hapless 5y ago
  Unlike Mexico, New York City does not need to maintain its borders or enforce a monopoly on the use of force and a supreme law -- because New York City is not a Westphalian state, it is just a municipal government covering a few hundred square miles! It is completely bonkers to have this many uniformed officers and this much money poured into security forces, and so little positive result of any of it. The reason that comparisons to Mexico are alarming is that it plainly does not make sense for a municipal government enclosed within a large and heavily militarized state to have an army of its own! It is strange to compare a city government to a large country! It is SUPPOSED to sound strange!
  - gruez 5y ago
    > Unlike Mexico, New York City does not need to maintain its borders or enforce a monopoly on the use of force and a supreme law -- because New York City is not a Westphalian state, it is just a municipal government covering a few hundred square miles! you'd think that's the case, but it seems fairly normal for countries to have more police officers than soldiers[1][2]. Just looking at g8 countries: soldiers police officers Canada 67,400 67,425 France 203,250 282,612 Germany 183,500 279,200 Italy 165,500 276,750 Japan 247,150 296,700 United Kingdom 148,500 148,893 United States 1,388,100 686,665 Which makes sense, considering that it's the police officers that are in charge of "enforce a monopoly on the use of force and a supreme law". In the 21st century, border incursions are rare compared to criminal activity. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_number_of_police_officers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependen... [2] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/military-size-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/military-...
    - cycomanic 5y ago
      But that was not what he was saying. His argument was that just because NY has such a high GDP does not mean they need to spend that much on their police force. The number of police (+soldiers) you need is more a function of the number of citizens and area. Just taking your numbers above. The NY police has 50,000 police for ~8.5 M people. Germany has ~280k police for 80 M people, and that number likely includes border police, customs police, federal police (all jobs the NY police does not do). So NY has probably around 2x as many (regular) police per citizen as Germany.
vikingerik 5y ago
> Also, when COVID occurred there was little room for teachers to get a say This may have been a positive. The teachers and their unions are only motivated for them to stay home and "safe", forever. It's the customers (parents) who need the leverage to get the teachers to actually deliver the service they're getting paid for, rather than trying to hide from their job indefinitely as many would be happy to do. Unions can be important to protect workers' rights, but it's also easy for them to go too far into not even providing the service the job is supposed to do. Particularly in an area with captive customers and government-mandated demand, like education.
- jethro_tell 5y ago
  - Manuel_D 5y ago
    Risks of dying from covid for those under 65 are extremely low. Those who are also vaccinated, even lower. At this point, it's comparable to the flu.
- bdefore 5y ago
  This is uncaring towards those working hardest on the challenges of education. Teachers more than those in most occupations are driven by care for their customers - their students. The low pay and hard work drives many of them away. Righteous parents even more.
  - bushbaba 5y ago
    Teachers pay can actually be good considering benefits, hours worked, time of, and benefits. There’s hover paying jobs, but also lots of worse career choices
- Spivak 5y ago
  Yeah, but the job they’re supposed to do is educate not necessarily babysit and covid made that separation front and center in a way that was felt by every parent. There’s lots of “well then maybe that should be their mission” but no one wants to put up the capital for public daycare.
cool_dude85 5y ago
>Extremely powerful (at least Oregon where I know about them) So, they don't get their employees good pay, they don't get a say in their working conditions. In what sense are they powerful, as you claim?
- marricks 5y ago
  Powerful in their ability to control their members without helping them! They end up being another source of control. That’s likely why there were a slew of wildcat teacher strikes.

gruez 5y ago

>Do most people in New York want their police force to have a budget larger than military of a mid sized country? Probably not? Pareto distribution strikes again! Apparently new york city has a GDP that ranks 15 in the world, above mexico[1][2] and ranks 59 in the world in terms of population[3], so the fact that new york exceeds "a mid sized country" (median?) in some statistic isn't surprising. If you want to make the argument that the US is over-policed, use some statistic like officers per 100,000 people or something. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_New_York_City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_New_York_City [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependen...

hapless 5y ago
Unlike Mexico, New York City does not need to maintain its borders or enforce a monopoly on the use of force and a supreme law -- because New York City is not a Westphalian state, it is just a municipal government covering a few hundred square miles! It is completely bonkers to have this many uniformed officers and this much money poured into security forces, and so little positive result of any of it. The reason that comparisons to Mexico are alarming is that it plainly does not make sense for a municipal government enclosed within a large and heavily militarized state to have an army of its own! It is strange to compare a city government to a large country! It is SUPPOSED to sound strange!
- gruez 5y ago
  > Unlike Mexico, New York City does not need to maintain its borders or enforce a monopoly on the use of force and a supreme law -- because New York City is not a Westphalian state, it is just a municipal government covering a few hundred square miles! you'd think that's the case, but it seems fairly normal for countries to have more police officers than soldiers[1][2]. Just looking at g8 countries: soldiers police officers Canada 67,400 67,425 France 203,250 282,612 Germany 183,500 279,200 Italy 165,500 276,750 Japan 247,150 296,700 United Kingdom 148,500 148,893 United States 1,388,100 686,665 Which makes sense, considering that it's the police officers that are in charge of "enforce a monopoly on the use of force and a supreme law". In the 21st century, border incursions are rare compared to criminal activity. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_number_of_police_officers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependen... [2] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/military-size-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/military-...
  - cycomanic 5y ago
    But that was not what he was saying. His argument was that just because NY has such a high GDP does not mean they need to spend that much on their police force. The number of police (+soldiers) you need is more a function of the number of citizens and area. Just taking your numbers above. The NY police has 50,000 police for ~8.5 M people. Germany has ~280k police for 80 M people, and that number likely includes border police, customs police, federal police (all jobs the NY police does not do). So NY has probably around 2x as many (regular) police per citizen as Germany.

vikingerik 5y ago

> Also, when COVID occurred there was little room for teachers to get a say This may have been a positive. The teachers and their unions are only motivated for them to stay home and "safe", forever. It's the customers (parents) who need the leverage to get the teachers to actually deliver the service they're getting paid for, rather than trying to hide from their job indefinitely as many would be happy to do. Unions can be important to protect workers' rights, but it's also easy for them to go too far into not even providing the service the job is supposed to do. Particularly in an area with captive customers and government-mandated demand, like education.

jethro_tell 5y ago
- Manuel_D 5y ago
  Risks of dying from covid for those under 65 are extremely low. Those who are also vaccinated, even lower. At this point, it's comparable to the flu.
bdefore 5y ago
This is uncaring towards those working hardest on the challenges of education. Teachers more than those in most occupations are driven by care for their customers - their students. The low pay and hard work drives many of them away. Righteous parents even more.
- bushbaba 5y ago
  Teachers pay can actually be good considering benefits, hours worked, time of, and benefits. There’s hover paying jobs, but also lots of worse career choices
Spivak 5y ago
Yeah, but the job they’re supposed to do is educate not necessarily babysit and covid made that separation front and center in a way that was felt by every parent. There’s lots of “well then maybe that should be their mission” but no one wants to put up the capital for public daycare.

cool_dude85 5y ago

>Extremely powerful (at least Oregon where I know about them) So, they don't get their employees good pay, they don't get a say in their working conditions. In what sense are they powerful, as you claim?

marricks 5y ago
Powerful in their ability to control their members without helping them! They end up being another source of control. That’s likely why there were a slew of wildcat teacher strikes.