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Not arguing against all unions here, but I think saying all companies don't have our interests in mind is a bit hyperbolic. Many software engineers and product

Not arguing against all unions here, but I think saying all companies don't have our interests in mind is a bit hyperbolic. Many software engineers and product managers at places like Alphabet and Meta are treated extremely well, make great salaries in the bay area, and (at least pre pandemic) were catered to with many great benefits (including catering). There are some jobs/places where this isn't the case, but many silicon valley developers have a fairly symbiotic relationship with their employers.

munk-a 5y ago
As incredibly inflated as developer salaries might seem - these companies make insane profits because developers create a lot more value than they cost. Companies never have your best interests in mind, small companies can act altruistically on small scales, but altruism is one of the first things that companies optimize away (beyond the level that earns them good PR). All those nice "free" benefits exist to make the employer more attractive to new employees, if you are a loyal employee no longer able to work productively due to an accident or other life changes you'll be exposed to just how much companies care about you. Silicon Valley has so much money that they can go pretty extravagant with benefits and perks, but (excepting again small/new companies that are living on VC funding) companies do care first about their bottom line. And, to be clear, I'm not actually saying this is necessarily a bad thing. I personally believe that social services should be at the grace of the government and not your employer - but this system relies on people on both sides of the fence (employee and employer) realizing that their employment is a contract that is to the benefit of the company and if their contract ceases to be beneficial it will be terminated. Being unaware of this fact will lead you to grief - it's on you to make sure you're getting a fair share for your value (which might, just FYI, include diverting a lot of your value creation to warehouse workers and the like who you think deserve a higher standard of living)
oblio 5y ago
> Alphabet The Company Formerly Known As Google, that literally had to settle (i.e. paid money to not lose the trial) for collusion to depress employee wages? That company? Yeah, employee interests at heart <3 > Meta For employees I hear The Company Formerly Knows as Facebook is actually quite good. But they're not a charity. > were catered to with many great benefits (including catering) Those benefits are cheap when bought in bulk, like corporations do. They also encouraged employees to stay more at work. Yes, they're nice, but let's not pretend that those benefits were not chosen very strategically. Both Google and Facebook are making a ton of money and still growing like gangbusters (Facebook somewhat less so). Once their growth plateaus, if they need to fire 10k employees each to increase profits and share values, they will do so without remorse. Probably on a Zoom call with all 10k employees at once.
- tuckerman 5y ago
  Isn’t getting caught and settling some evidence that the system works to some extent? I know what the benefits are for, and while there are some good side-effects for the company, a lot of them are genuinely good for the employees as well. I had enough massage credits, Covid cue tests, and time spent in great gyms to attest to that. If they can be bought in bulk, all the more reason I appreciate it being someone’s job at the company to manage that. I’m not saying these companies are your best pal and will look out for you against their own interests, but I personally don’t feel like I need or want a union between me and my employer. I don’t fault anyone for wanting one, but the hyperbole and passing opinions as facts on the other side, especially without considering the downsides of unions, isn’t doing anything to convince me.
  - oblio 5y ago
    > Isn’t getting caught and settling some evidence that the system works to some extent? What kind of broken logic is this? Getting caught is precisely proof that the LEGAL system works, and that companies try to and succeed in abusing it. Those companies agreed to those illegal practices in 2006, if not earlier, and they had to pay those settlements in 2015, 9 full years later. They probably made out like bandits during those 9 years and saved a ton more money than they had to pay. And regarding your negotiating skills, most of us think we're better than we actually are. Plus, this is a social thing. Let's assume you're part of the 1%. What do we do about the 99%? Do we just piss on their heads from a great height, "f** you, got mine"-style, pardon my French? Unions should be a valid option.

munk-a 5y ago

As incredibly inflated as developer salaries might seem - these companies make insane profits because developers create a lot more value than they cost. Companies never have your best interests in mind, small companies can act altruistically on small scales, but altruism is one of the first things that companies optimize away (beyond the level that earns them good PR). All those nice "free" benefits exist to make the employer more attractive to new employees, if you are a loyal employee no longer able to work productively due to an accident or other life changes you'll be exposed to just how much companies care about you. Silicon Valley has so much money that they can go pretty extravagant with benefits and perks, but (excepting again small/new companies that are living on VC funding) companies do care first about their bottom line. And, to be clear, I'm not actually saying this is necessarily a bad thing. I personally believe that social services should be at the grace of the government and not your employer - but this system relies on people on both sides of the fence (employee and employer) realizing that their employment is a contract that is to the benefit of the company and if their contract ceases to be beneficial it will be terminated. Being unaware of this fact will lead you to grief - it's on you to make sure you're getting a fair share for your value (which might, just FYI, include diverting a lot of your value creation to warehouse workers and the like who you think deserve a higher standard of living)

oblio 5y ago

> Alphabet The Company Formerly Known As Google, that literally had to settle (i.e. paid money to not lose the trial) for collusion to depress employee wages? That company? Yeah, employee interests at heart <3 > Meta For employees I hear The Company Formerly Knows as Facebook is actually quite good. But they're not a charity. > were catered to with many great benefits (including catering) Those benefits are cheap when bought in bulk, like corporations do. They also encouraged employees to stay more at work. Yes, they're nice, but let's not pretend that those benefits were not chosen very strategically. Both Google and Facebook are making a ton of money and still growing like gangbusters (Facebook somewhat less so). Once their growth plateaus, if they need to fire 10k employees each to increase profits and share values, they will do so without remorse. Probably on a Zoom call with all 10k employees at once.

tuckerman 5y ago
Isn’t getting caught and settling some evidence that the system works to some extent? I know what the benefits are for, and while there are some good side-effects for the company, a lot of them are genuinely good for the employees as well. I had enough massage credits, Covid cue tests, and time spent in great gyms to attest to that. If they can be bought in bulk, all the more reason I appreciate it being someone’s job at the company to manage that. I’m not saying these companies are your best pal and will look out for you against their own interests, but I personally don’t feel like I need or want a union between me and my employer. I don’t fault anyone for wanting one, but the hyperbole and passing opinions as facts on the other side, especially without considering the downsides of unions, isn’t doing anything to convince me.
- oblio 5y ago
  > Isn’t getting caught and settling some evidence that the system works to some extent? What kind of broken logic is this? Getting caught is precisely proof that the LEGAL system works, and that companies try to and succeed in abusing it. Those companies agreed to those illegal practices in 2006, if not earlier, and they had to pay those settlements in 2015, 9 full years later. They probably made out like bandits during those 9 years and saved a ton more money than they had to pay. And regarding your negotiating skills, most of us think we're better than we actually are. Plus, this is a social thing. Let's assume you're part of the 1%. What do we do about the 99%? Do we just piss on their heads from a great height, "f** you, got mine"-style, pardon my French? Unions should be a valid option.