4 ms·

>He explained the reason unions in the US were shrinking is that they are too powerful. They control huge pension and healthcare portfolios and can completely c

>He explained the reason unions in the US were shrinking is that they are too powerful. They control huge pension and healthcare portfolios and can completely control the relationship with employers, especially in closed shop situations. This is interesting. I'm a government employee with a union, a pension, health insurance, the whole deal. The union does not control the pension or healthcare in any way whatsoever. The governmental entity that I'm employed by, my employer, controls both, subject to collective bargaining to some extent. That is, my contract says I can join the pension, that I pay X% into the pension, that I can also join a 401k-style program if I wish, I'd pay Y% in that case. But it doesn't say anything about the operation of the pension or offer any real control. Same with my healthcare - it needs to meet certain criteria (e.g., premiums will be so many dollars for single coverage, employer must pay X% of actuarial value, etc.) So, who are these unions who actually have union-run pensions and healthcare plans?

legitster 5y ago
I believe Teamsters is the biggest. But there are enough that taxpayers ended up bailing out a ton this year: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/07/business/dealbook/bailout-pensions-stimulus.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/07/business/dealbook/bailout... But even if your union doesn't directly control your healthcare plan, I would still assume it was part of the collective bargaining?
- cool_dude85 5y ago
  Multi-employer pension plans are usually governed by a board of trustees. Depends on the plan but typically labor and management share power equally (broadly speaking). And yeah, pensions, healthcare are all part of collective bargaining. Do you control the healthcare plan where you work? I assume it's part of negotiating the terms of your employment, so you could always ask for a really good one.
whimsicalism 5y ago
This is also my experience with unions. I don't know if it is different for things like electricians/etc. where you might not have a single shop you work for but you get jobs through the union.
wahern 5y ago
Private corporations no longer offer pension (i.e. defined benefit) plans, so if employees want a pension it's going to be managed by a union, assuming they even have a union. That's probably for the better because these days (as opposed to 70 years ago), unions will be far more responsible managers of a pension fund than corporations, partly because of stricter government oversight. Some other countries have nationally managed pension funds. All the U.S. has is Social Security, a minimalist safety-net pension, and it's a heavy political lift just to maintain that, so I don't see things changing here. Also, don't unions literally sit on the board of corporations in countries like Germany? The notion that U.S. unions have too much power just seems like a typically American spin on the efficacy of unions--a bias veiled as a criticism. There's a host of reasons unions aren't more prevalent in the U.S., and they feed back onto each other, but if you had to boil them all down, IMO it's because our culture is rather hostile to unions, and it's always been that way. Even at their peak popularity in early- and mid-20th century, mainstream unions (as opposed to the infamous Wobblies, which never had significant membership) were remarkably conservative as compared to their counterparts in Europe, reflecting the general culture.
- cool_dude85 5y ago
  This is the exact distinction I'd like to make, in fact. The pension probably isn't managed by a union, it's managed by a board and management structure that will usually include both employees (who might be former employees, or members of one union, or a different union, or management) and representatives of the employer. The union most likely negotiates certain details of the pension in their contract, but actual management is not typically done by a union. Hence, they cannot easily use management of the pension fund (they don't manage it) against the employer, as the OP claims.
- rocqua 5y ago
  Unions have more hard power in the US. More control. Stuff like 'everyone who works has to be union'. Only X job can do Y. And Unions seek to increase their control as a defense against companies trying to take it back. European (dutch specifically) Unions have soft power. The only real control they have is declaring a strike. Everything else is bargaining for better terms of employment. The underlying trick is that entire sectors (willingly) have collective terms of employment.
Spooky23 5y ago
Historically the government is better at procuring benefit plans. Back in the 70s and 80s, .gov would throw benefits at employees because they are better at procurement and could grant benefits at $0.80 on the dollar. Companies would throw money at unions to cap liability. But it does happen, especially with dental and similar plans.
quickthrowman 5y ago
> So, who are these unions who actually have union-run pensions and healthcare plans? Skilled trade unions. IBEW (electrical) has union-run pensions and healthcare, I’m not familiar enough with pipefitters or steelworkers but I’d guess their unions do too.
lr4444lr 5y ago
> The union does not control the pension or healthcare in any way whatsoever. Pretty much all teachers unions negotiate healthcare and pensions, I think. That is, what plans you have access to, the contributions you need to make for them, and the dept. of ed.'s contribution and eligibility rules. The union and the state dept. of ed negotiate together.

legitster 5y ago

I believe Teamsters is the biggest. But there are enough that taxpayers ended up bailing out a ton this year: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/07/business/dealbook/bailout-pensions-stimulus.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/07/business/dealbook/bailout... But even if your union doesn't directly control your healthcare plan, I would still assume it was part of the collective bargaining?

cool_dude85 5y ago
Multi-employer pension plans are usually governed by a board of trustees. Depends on the plan but typically labor and management share power equally (broadly speaking). And yeah, pensions, healthcare are all part of collective bargaining. Do you control the healthcare plan where you work? I assume it's part of negotiating the terms of your employment, so you could always ask for a really good one.

whimsicalism 5y ago

This is also my experience with unions. I don't know if it is different for things like electricians/etc. where you might not have a single shop you work for but you get jobs through the union.

wahern 5y ago

Private corporations no longer offer pension (i.e. defined benefit) plans, so if employees want a pension it's going to be managed by a union, assuming they even have a union. That's probably for the better because these days (as opposed to 70 years ago), unions will be far more responsible managers of a pension fund than corporations, partly because of stricter government oversight. Some other countries have nationally managed pension funds. All the U.S. has is Social Security, a minimalist safety-net pension, and it's a heavy political lift just to maintain that, so I don't see things changing here. Also, don't unions literally sit on the board of corporations in countries like Germany? The notion that U.S. unions have too much power just seems like a typically American spin on the efficacy of unions--a bias veiled as a criticism. There's a host of reasons unions aren't more prevalent in the U.S., and they feed back onto each other, but if you had to boil them all down, IMO it's because our culture is rather hostile to unions, and it's always been that way. Even at their peak popularity in early- and mid-20th century, mainstream unions (as opposed to the infamous Wobblies, which never had significant membership) were remarkably conservative as compared to their counterparts in Europe, reflecting the general culture.

cool_dude85 5y ago
This is the exact distinction I'd like to make, in fact. The pension probably isn't managed by a union, it's managed by a board and management structure that will usually include both employees (who might be former employees, or members of one union, or a different union, or management) and representatives of the employer. The union most likely negotiates certain details of the pension in their contract, but actual management is not typically done by a union. Hence, they cannot easily use management of the pension fund (they don't manage it) against the employer, as the OP claims.
rocqua 5y ago
Unions have more hard power in the US. More control. Stuff like 'everyone who works has to be union'. Only X job can do Y. And Unions seek to increase their control as a defense against companies trying to take it back. European (dutch specifically) Unions have soft power. The only real control they have is declaring a strike. Everything else is bargaining for better terms of employment. The underlying trick is that entire sectors (willingly) have collective terms of employment.

Spooky23 5y ago

Historically the government is better at procuring benefit plans. Back in the 70s and 80s, .gov would throw benefits at employees because they are better at procurement and could grant benefits at $0.80 on the dollar. Companies would throw money at unions to cap liability. But it does happen, especially with dental and similar plans.

quickthrowman 5y ago

> So, who are these unions who actually have union-run pensions and healthcare plans? Skilled trade unions. IBEW (electrical) has union-run pensions and healthcare, I’m not familiar enough with pipefitters or steelworkers but I’d guess their unions do too.

lr4444lr 5y ago

> The union does not control the pension or healthcare in any way whatsoever. Pretty much all teachers unions negotiate healthcare and pensions, I think. That is, what plans you have access to, the contributions you need to make for them, and the dept. of ed.'s contribution and eligibility rules. The union and the state dept. of ed negotiate together.