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>around why Russia might see it as a threat. except that russia already has NATO neigbours. Let us apply this logic to other countries. Maybe Poland or Lithua

>around why Russia might see it as a threat. except that russia already has NATO neigbours. Let us apply this logic to other countries. Maybe Poland or Lithuania are threatened but a Russian presence in Kaliningrad. So I guess maybe they too should stage a special operation to rid the area of Putin's Neo fascists? The point is that this kind of thinking only considers Russia as an active agent, and everyone else is just some sort of NPC. It's extremely convenient that it aligns with Putin's propaganda of course

yucky 5y ago
No, it speaks to what Mearsheaimer is saying which is essentially - don't be surprised if you threaten Mike Tyson and he punches you in the face. And if some 3rd party (ie the US) talked you into threatening Mike Tyson, understand that they also knew you were going to get punched in the face. Understanding that doesn't mean you support Mike Tyson, it just means you know how to understand consequences of messing with someone bigger and stronger than you.
- cuteboy19 5y ago
  The problem with imperialists is that they consider the very thought of independence to be an attack.
- watwut 5y ago
  Mearsheaimer would have to show that absent NATO expansion, Moscow would let Ukraine live in peace. There was no risk of Ukraine joining NATO anytime soon.
  - yucky 5y ago
    Seems you're forgetting the timeline. Immediately after the 2014 coup the new US-approved government changed the Constitution to the 2004 version which allowed for a vote to join NATO[1]. Then Russia invaded Crimea as a result, since a country not in control of its borders would not be eligible to join NATO. Then in December 2014 Ukraine voted to abandon neutrality and begin the process of getting into NATO anyway.[2] Trump's presidency definitely put a pause on this plan, but now that Biden is back on top the clock has started ticking again. So yes, Ukraine was very much on its way into NATO, but they needed to either officially cede Crimea and Donbass to Russia, or expel Russia to be eligible. So something had to give. [1] https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/191727.html https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/191727.html [2] https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-parliament-abandons-neutrality/26758725.html https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-parliament-abandons-neutrali...

yucky 5y ago

No, it speaks to what Mearsheaimer is saying which is essentially - don't be surprised if you threaten Mike Tyson and he punches you in the face. And if some 3rd party (ie the US) talked you into threatening Mike Tyson, understand that they also knew you were going to get punched in the face. Understanding that doesn't mean you support Mike Tyson, it just means you know how to understand consequences of messing with someone bigger and stronger than you.

cuteboy19 5y ago
The problem with imperialists is that they consider the very thought of independence to be an attack.
watwut 5y ago
Mearsheaimer would have to show that absent NATO expansion, Moscow would let Ukraine live in peace. There was no risk of Ukraine joining NATO anytime soon.
- yucky 5y ago
  Seems you're forgetting the timeline. Immediately after the 2014 coup the new US-approved government changed the Constitution to the 2004 version which allowed for a vote to join NATO[1]. Then Russia invaded Crimea as a result, since a country not in control of its borders would not be eligible to join NATO. Then in December 2014 Ukraine voted to abandon neutrality and begin the process of getting into NATO anyway.[2] Trump's presidency definitely put a pause on this plan, but now that Biden is back on top the clock has started ticking again. So yes, Ukraine was very much on its way into NATO, but they needed to either officially cede Crimea and Donbass to Russia, or expel Russia to be eligible. So something had to give. [1] https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/191727.html https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/191727.html [2] https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-parliament-abandons-neutrality/26758725.html https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-parliament-abandons-neutrali...