5 ms·
This is a textbook example of loosing at the prisoner's dilemma due to selfishness. The only way you get a better contract then the union is if the company in
by cwmma 5y ago
This is a textbook example of loosing at the prisoner's dilemma due to selfishness. The only way you get a better contract then the union is if the company intentionally does it to spite the union.
- seibelj 5y agoYou are authoritarian - forcing people to do something that should be accomplished voluntarily is antithetical to freedom
- djrobstep 5y agoWhy is it authoritarian and bad to be forced to interact with the union, but fine to be forced to interact with management?
- seibelj 5y agoCan always get a new job. But if every company has a monopoly union, can’t avoid that. Really don’t understand the reasoning to not making union membership voluntary. Completely illogical. Basically you agree it’s authoritarian but “it’s better than the alternative” which is bullshit.
- djrobstep 5y agoCan always get a new job. But if every company has shareholders, can’t avoid that. Really don’t understand the reasoning to not making contributing to shareholder profit voluntary. Completely illogical. Basically you agree it’s authoritarian but “it’s better than the alternative” which is bullshit.
- seibelj 5y agoThere are worker co-ops and communal living groups. No one forces you to join a traditional corporation. You could also (gasp!) start your own company… But that’s a lot of work!
- djrobstep 5y agoYou've misunderstood. I want to work at the company, I just don't want to be forced to contribute shareholder profits - just like you want to work at the company but don't want to be forced to contribute union dues.
- seibelj 5y agoThe goal of a for-profit business is to make money. There are plenty of non-profits and government jobs if you don’t want to get with the program. You may be shocked to find a lot of non-profits also need to make cash to survive, however.
- djrobstep 5y agoAgain you've seemed to misunderstand. I'm happy to work at the company and make money, I just don't want to be forced to contribute to shareholder profits, just like you don't want to be forced to contribute to union dues. Why should one be voluntary but not the other?
- seibelj 5y agoI voluntarily join a company. Me paying some third-party non-governmental organization to “represent” me when I never asked for it is the issue. However we keep going in circles and it is clear you are illogical.
- djrobstep 5y agoSimilarly, I voluntarily join a company. Me paying some third-party shareholders when I never asked for it is the issue. Where’s the lack of logic? The real issue is you won’t even begin to engage in explaining why these two things are different. It suggests to me you haven’t arrived at this position rationally, but through ideology (“corporations good, unions bad”).
- giraffe_lady 5y agoThe baseline condition of labor, that those doing it must continue to do it or they will die, is inherently much more authoritarian than this. I'm not at all arguing for an "ends justify the means" position here, just pointing out that the condition we're talking about is already a morally compromised one, and so people won't always have the freedom to operate purely in line with their moral preferences. Or yours. Because, importantly, which specific things "should be accomplished voluntarily" is an idealogical position we won't always share. There is already much coercion foundational to our society, maybe you can find another one to oppose on purely abstract moral grounds.
- seibelj 5y agoNope I don’t want to join a union and any attempt to make me will be fought aggressively. Just my preference not to be forced to pay money to people I did not ask to represent me.
- giraffe_lady 5y agoThen welcome to the fight we're trying to get rid of the cops next.
- seibelj 5y agoI don’t want to “get rid of the cops” either because I’m not a psychopath. I very much don’t want to be robbed and murdered!
- BuckRogers 5y agoWell that would be a lot more things in life. But you only choose to use that logic against the ONE thing that actually could better your existence, along with millions of others? That just doesn't sit well. You have all sorts of government structures that you contribute to, that you never asked for. Ultimately, you can just find a job that suits you. But if the world was 90% union, I guarantee you would NOT choose the remaining non-union jobs, because the difference in pay and treatment would be so stark (as it is today already), then you'd shed your views for your own betterment.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]