5 ms·

This is a text-book example of being a victim of your own success. People have had the perks of union membership for so long, that they no long attribute them

This is a text-book example of being a victim of your own success. People have had the perks of union membership for so long, that they no long attribute them to the union. All they see are the costs of the union. Also, I feel like it's safe to assume that you don't know any teachers or police officers? Both those groups seem to very much support their unions.

jedberg 5y ago
Most teachers I know, and I know a lot of them, don't really like their union because their union is ineffective. If it actually worked for them, they'd be making wages commensurate with their required education levels.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  Wages are typically one of many priorities for a union. I know a couple teachers who tried the charter school thing and discovered non-union teaching has its own issues.
  - brimble 5y ago
    Non-elite private schools often have worse comp and/or working conditions than public schools in the same area. Which is surprising to some who assume "private school = big bucks", but there are lots of charter schools or religious private schools (which is most private schools, AFAIK) where that's definitely not the case.
    - jessaustin 5y ago
      When I lived in Los Angeles, a friend who taught at an "elite" private school also reported worse compensation than at comparable public schools.
- coolso 5y ago
  - JaimeThompson 5y ago
    Any evidence of anything you just said?
    - coolso 5y ago
      [flagged]
      - ceejayoz 5y ago
        > “low pay” despite having 3 months vacation every year My kids' teachers get in as early as 5am, and I'm frequently getting emails and grade notifications from them as late as 9pm. They're not working anything close to 40 hour weeks during the school year. > despite other workers in other industries going to work every day This seems like an argument for unions in those other industries. > Lest we forget the studies showing the harm to society, especially young males, that comes about from them being brought up in a “progressive” matriarchal system that in many areas teaches them that they’re bad. Ah, yes, "the studies". A great citation.
      - JaimeThompson 5y ago
        It's strange that you appear to think opinions don't need a factual basis. You really should research what you are saying as the facts on the ground are way different then you appear to think they are.
- ceeplusplus 5y ago
  Eh, I think this ends up being a product of local school funding, at least in most smaller size school districts (i.e. not the size of LAUSD). I know my high school paid (and still pays now, a decade later) their teachers substantially more than the next district over. Most of the tenured teachers made 120k+. I don't think that was because they had a better union but because the school district made a conscious choice to try to be the best and to match private schools in quality. It all starts and ends with local parents willing to make a sacrifice in their quality of life to fund schools. Many cities around where I lived were much wealthier (higher home values by 50-100%, many high paying employers) but had much worse schools.
- brimble 5y ago
  This seems to vary a ton state-by-state or even city-by-city. I can confirm that in my (red, midwestern) state the teachers union is totally fucking worthless. NEA's a little better, but neither is interested in actually working against things like pay freezes that are never undone, violations of contracts, et c. Not here, anyway.
- BuckRogers 5y ago
  Your pay is not due to your education level in this world. It's equal to your ability to demand it. Unions don't magically mean you have all the power in the world, it only helps to level the bargaining table. My wife is a union teacher, and makes a six figure salary. She's hardly a victim, and it's all thanks to her union, and the work of many union members for decades prior. It doesn't happen overnight, and that may be the problem your union teacher friends are running into.
plandis 5y ago
Police unions absolutely are not a good thing for society.

jedberg 5y ago

Most teachers I know, and I know a lot of them, don't really like their union because their union is ineffective. If it actually worked for them, they'd be making wages commensurate with their required education levels.

ceejayoz 5y ago
Wages are typically one of many priorities for a union. I know a couple teachers who tried the charter school thing and discovered non-union teaching has its own issues.
- brimble 5y ago
  Non-elite private schools often have worse comp and/or working conditions than public schools in the same area. Which is surprising to some who assume "private school = big bucks", but there are lots of charter schools or religious private schools (which is most private schools, AFAIK) where that's definitely not the case.
  - jessaustin 5y ago
    When I lived in Los Angeles, a friend who taught at an "elite" private school also reported worse compensation than at comparable public schools.
coolso 5y ago
- JaimeThompson 5y ago
  Any evidence of anything you just said?
  - coolso 5y ago
    [flagged]
    - ceejayoz 5y ago
      > “low pay” despite having 3 months vacation every year My kids' teachers get in as early as 5am, and I'm frequently getting emails and grade notifications from them as late as 9pm. They're not working anything close to 40 hour weeks during the school year. > despite other workers in other industries going to work every day This seems like an argument for unions in those other industries. > Lest we forget the studies showing the harm to society, especially young males, that comes about from them being brought up in a “progressive” matriarchal system that in many areas teaches them that they’re bad. Ah, yes, "the studies". A great citation.
    - JaimeThompson 5y ago
      It's strange that you appear to think opinions don't need a factual basis. You really should research what you are saying as the facts on the ground are way different then you appear to think they are.
ceeplusplus 5y ago
Eh, I think this ends up being a product of local school funding, at least in most smaller size school districts (i.e. not the size of LAUSD). I know my high school paid (and still pays now, a decade later) their teachers substantially more than the next district over. Most of the tenured teachers made 120k+. I don't think that was because they had a better union but because the school district made a conscious choice to try to be the best and to match private schools in quality. It all starts and ends with local parents willing to make a sacrifice in their quality of life to fund schools. Many cities around where I lived were much wealthier (higher home values by 50-100%, many high paying employers) but had much worse schools.
brimble 5y ago
This seems to vary a ton state-by-state or even city-by-city. I can confirm that in my (red, midwestern) state the teachers union is totally fucking worthless. NEA's a little better, but neither is interested in actually working against things like pay freezes that are never undone, violations of contracts, et c. Not here, anyway.
BuckRogers 5y ago
Your pay is not due to your education level in this world. It's equal to your ability to demand it. Unions don't magically mean you have all the power in the world, it only helps to level the bargaining table. My wife is a union teacher, and makes a six figure salary. She's hardly a victim, and it's all thanks to her union, and the work of many union members for decades prior. It doesn't happen overnight, and that may be the problem your union teacher friends are running into.

plandis 5y ago

Police unions absolutely are not a good thing for society.