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Should also have the right to work at a company and NOT have to join the union, and negotiate your own conditions / wages independently.
by seibelj 5y ago
Should also have the right to work at a company and NOT have to join the union, and negotiate your own conditions / wages independently.
- cwmma 5y agoThis is a textbook example of loosing at the prisoner's dilemma due to selfishness. The only way you get a better contract then the union is if the company intentionally does it to spite the union.
- seibelj 5y agoYou are authoritarian - forcing people to do something that should be accomplished voluntarily is antithetical to freedom
- djrobstep 5y agoWhy is it authoritarian and bad to be forced to interact with the union, but fine to be forced to interact with management?
- seibelj 5y agoCan always get a new job. But if every company has a monopoly union, can’t avoid that. Really don’t understand the reasoning to not making union membership voluntary. Completely illogical. Basically you agree it’s authoritarian but “it’s better than the alternative” which is bullshit.
- djrobstep 5y agoCan always get a new job. But if every company has shareholders, can’t avoid that. Really don’t understand the reasoning to not making contributing to shareholder profit voluntary. Completely illogical. Basically you agree it’s authoritarian but “it’s better than the alternative” which is bullshit.
- seibelj 5y agoThere are worker co-ops and communal living groups. No one forces you to join a traditional corporation. You could also (gasp!) start your own company… But that’s a lot of work!
- djrobstep 5y agoYou've misunderstood. I want to work at the company, I just don't want to be forced to contribute shareholder profits - just like you want to work at the company but don't want to be forced to contribute union dues.
- seibelj 5y agoThe goal of a for-profit business is to make money. There are plenty of non-profits and government jobs if you don’t want to get with the program. You may be shocked to find a lot of non-profits also need to make cash to survive, however.
- djrobstep 5y agoAgain you've seemed to misunderstand. I'm happy to work at the company and make money, I just don't want to be forced to contribute to shareholder profits, just like you don't want to be forced to contribute to union dues. Why should one be voluntary but not the other?
- seibelj 5y agoI voluntarily join a company. Me paying some third-party non-governmental organization to “represent” me when I never asked for it is the issue. However we keep going in circles and it is clear you are illogical.
- djrobstep 5y agoSimilarly, I voluntarily join a company. Me paying some third-party shareholders when I never asked for it is the issue. Where’s the lack of logic? The real issue is you won’t even begin to engage in explaining why these two things are different. It suggests to me you haven’t arrived at this position rationally, but through ideology (“corporations good, unions bad”).
- giraffe_lady 5y agoThe baseline condition of labor, that those doing it must continue to do it or they will die, is inherently much more authoritarian than this. I'm not at all arguing for an "ends justify the means" position here, just pointing out that the condition we're talking about is already a morally compromised one, and so people won't always have the freedom to operate purely in line with their moral preferences. Or yours. Because, importantly, which specific things "should be accomplished voluntarily" is an idealogical position we won't always share. There is already much coercion foundational to our society, maybe you can find another one to oppose on purely abstract moral grounds.
- seibelj 5y agoNope I don’t want to join a union and any attempt to make me will be fought aggressively. Just my preference not to be forced to pay money to people I did not ask to represent me.
- giraffe_lady 5y agoThen welcome to the fight we're trying to get rid of the cops next.
- seibelj 5y agoI don’t want to “get rid of the cops” either because I’m not a psychopath. I very much don’t want to be robbed and murdered!
- BuckRogers 5y agoWell that would be a lot more things in life. But you only choose to use that logic against the ONE thing that actually could better your existence, along with millions of others? That just doesn't sit well. You have all sorts of government structures that you contribute to, that you never asked for. Ultimately, you can just find a job that suits you. But if the world was 90% union, I guarantee you would NOT choose the remaining non-union jobs, because the difference in pay and treatment would be so stark (as it is today already), then you'd shed your views for your own betterment.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- educaysean 5y agoYup, this is just as important in my view. Tangentially related: one of the places my wife worked at had a union that "pretty much everyone joins" because they charge union fees from every worker regardless of whether they join the union or not. I don't understand how they could mandate something like that, and the idea didn't sit well with me. It's a classic case of taxation without representation!
- djrobstep 5y agoWhy is it bad to be forced to deal with the union and contribute to union dues, but fine to be forced to deal with management and contribute to shareholder profits?
- educaysean 5y agoWhy is it bad? It's bad because it takes away freedom and agency from the working class, and workers rights is something I care about.
- djrobstep 5y agoWhy does being forced to deal with management and contribute to shareholder profits not take away freedom and agency from the working class?
- educaysean 5y agoWhen did I make this claim? I hate seeing these snarky takes on HN. Lots of things take away agency from the working class: like employer-centric insurance system, complex and regressive taxes, etc. But you already knew these things and you also knew that the topic on hand was about unions. God forbid anyone say anything critical about THAT. If you have a point to make, get right to it instead of hiding behind snark. Edit: nevermind guy. I can see others have already tried. Cheers.
- djrobstep 5y ago
- josephcsible 5y agoIndeed. And remember that any union that's actually good for workers would have no reason to oppose such a right.
- djrobstep 5y agoShould you also have the right to work at the company and not be forced to contribute to shareholder profits? Surely any management that was actually good for workers would have no reason to oppose such a measure.
- josephcsible 5y agoI'm not asking to be in the union but not pay the dues. I'm asking to not be in the union.
- djrobstep 5y agoI’m not asking to be considered a profit contributor but not contribute to profits. I’m asking to not be a profit contributor.
- josephcsible 5y agoIsn't that just not being an employee? And no company can not let you quit.
- djrobstep 5y agoNo, I want to be an employee. I simply don't want to be forced to join the shareholder profit contributors group, as that would be an attack on liberty, free association, and voluntarism.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- seoaeu 5y ago
- djrobstep 5y agoWhy should you have the right to work at a company withing joining the union, but not have the right to work at the company without generating money for shareholders?