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What about China’s supposedly social credit system? Maybe government intervention on such “trifling” matters is now possible thanks to IT systems, and we will

What about China’s supposedly social credit system? Maybe government intervention on such “trifling” matters is now possible thanks to IT systems, and we will come to see this as the norm, rather than the exception, as more and more people forcefully or willingly give up some of their liberties in order to have (or merely feel?) more security.

xboxnolifes 5y ago
I'm aware of the existence of China's social credit system, but that's not exactly a system I'm keen on holding up as a something to strive for. This being in the UK, I feel we should look at UK historical norms, not China's.
- MadSudaca 5y ago
  I get it’s UK and may be the most influential western country in the last 200-300 years. But time goes on, countries evolve and often they do so in unexpected ways. My argument is that, at some point we must detach a country from its past (whatever that means) and accept the direction its constituents are now wanting to take. Even if we personally don’t approve of said direction.
  - ledauphin 5y ago
    I don't think "we" must do anything of the sort. It's important to continue to disagree with things, and articulate the reasons why, even if a majority of some other group supports them.
    - seanhandley 5y ago
      > It's important to continue to disagree with things No, it isn't.
  - decremental 5y ago
    Except it's not an evolution. There's nothing organic taking place. It's a concerted, top-down effort to manipulate and coerce populations into going along with things that are expressly against their own freedoms and interests by people who are by any standard their enemies.
    - Radim 5y ago
      > a concerted, top-down effort to manipulate and coerce [others] into going along with things [I want]. How is that outside of evolution? Your definition of "organic" seems suspect.
      - decremental 5y ago
        If tomorrow the government commanded that the color blue is now to be called red, that would not be an evolution of language. It would not be language evolving organically as language does over time. It would be change by force outside of the way things change naturally on their own.
        Radim 5y ago
        > outside of the way things change naturally on their own. "Naturally on their own", you say? It sounds like you consider humans outside of forces of nature, outside of evolution. Are you a theist perhaps? I'm trying to understand your position, because to me humans and human relationships and human societies and human actions seem (obviously) a part of nature. They're complex systems, yes, but there's nothing inorganic or unnatural or magical about them. The same rules of biology and physics apply as everywhere else. And yes, coercing others to capture more resources for self seems a prototypical example of a (co-)evolutionary arms race.
        decremental 5y ago
        I feel like I'm debating someone who is intentionally acting obtuse. I think you know what I'm saying and understand perfectly well what my position is here. Trying to shoehorn religion (something I'm sure you abhore) into this says a lot about the disingenuous nature of your motivation in this discussion. This would be more fruitful if you would just be candid with your own opinions instead affecting a passive aggressive attitude. Let's agree to disagree.
AdrianB1 5y ago
If you compare UK with China then what is next, North Korea? What is the point of mentioning China, is relevant to the discussion? Is China a model of great society and personal freedoms that other countries should follow?
- ng12 5y ago
  No, the PRC is a model of a digitally-forward authoritarian regime and we should be shocked that a Western Democracy is behaving similarly.
- MadSudaca 5y ago
  I don’t know. Personally, I like my freedoms and I wouldn’t like to live under a system implementing social credits as in China (have they done this? I’m not sure). However, I don’t know what will work in the long-run. There’s a lot of things I don’t like about China, but it has done a lot of things right. I also know they have fairly different values to the west, allegedly, a lot more weight put in the wellbeing of the collective, even at the expense of the individual. So I bring China not as to put UK in a worse light, but to put an example of countries implementing these sort of systems of surveillance and enforcement.

xboxnolifes 5y ago

I'm aware of the existence of China's social credit system, but that's not exactly a system I'm keen on holding up as a something to strive for. This being in the UK, I feel we should look at UK historical norms, not China's.

MadSudaca 5y ago
I get it’s UK and may be the most influential western country in the last 200-300 years. But time goes on, countries evolve and often they do so in unexpected ways. My argument is that, at some point we must detach a country from its past (whatever that means) and accept the direction its constituents are now wanting to take. Even if we personally don’t approve of said direction.
- ledauphin 5y ago
  I don't think "we" must do anything of the sort. It's important to continue to disagree with things, and articulate the reasons why, even if a majority of some other group supports them.
  - seanhandley 5y ago
    > It's important to continue to disagree with things No, it isn't.
- decremental 5y ago
  Except it's not an evolution. There's nothing organic taking place. It's a concerted, top-down effort to manipulate and coerce populations into going along with things that are expressly against their own freedoms and interests by people who are by any standard their enemies.
  - Radim 5y ago
    > a concerted, top-down effort to manipulate and coerce [others] into going along with things [I want]. How is that outside of evolution? Your definition of "organic" seems suspect.
    - decremental 5y ago
      If tomorrow the government commanded that the color blue is now to be called red, that would not be an evolution of language. It would not be language evolving organically as language does over time. It would be change by force outside of the way things change naturally on their own.
      - Radim 5y ago
        > outside of the way things change naturally on their own. "Naturally on their own", you say? It sounds like you consider humans outside of forces of nature, outside of evolution. Are you a theist perhaps? I'm trying to understand your position, because to me humans and human relationships and human societies and human actions seem (obviously) a part of nature. They're complex systems, yes, but there's nothing inorganic or unnatural or magical about them. The same rules of biology and physics apply as everywhere else. And yes, coercing others to capture more resources for self seems a prototypical example of a (co-)evolutionary arms race.
        decremental 5y ago
        I feel like I'm debating someone who is intentionally acting obtuse. I think you know what I'm saying and understand perfectly well what my position is here. Trying to shoehorn religion (something I'm sure you abhore) into this says a lot about the disingenuous nature of your motivation in this discussion. This would be more fruitful if you would just be candid with your own opinions instead affecting a passive aggressive attitude. Let's agree to disagree.

AdrianB1 5y ago

If you compare UK with China then what is next, North Korea? What is the point of mentioning China, is relevant to the discussion? Is China a model of great society and personal freedoms that other countries should follow?

ng12 5y ago
No, the PRC is a model of a digitally-forward authoritarian regime and we should be shocked that a Western Democracy is behaving similarly.
MadSudaca 5y ago
I don’t know. Personally, I like my freedoms and I wouldn’t like to live under a system implementing social credits as in China (have they done this? I’m not sure). However, I don’t know what will work in the long-run. There’s a lot of things I don’t like about China, but it has done a lot of things right. I also know they have fairly different values to the west, allegedly, a lot more weight put in the wellbeing of the collective, even at the expense of the individual. So I bring China not as to put UK in a worse light, but to put an example of countries implementing these sort of systems of surveillance and enforcement.