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I have some family members that work at Amazon, my understanding is that the conditions at Amazon are hard to pin down because some warehouses are run just fine

I have some family members that work at Amazon, my understanding is that the conditions at Amazon are hard to pin down because some warehouses are run just fine and others are abusive. That said, everyone working a job has a right to a union. Whether there's workplace abuse going on or not. All human endeavors are corrupt, including gov't, business, and occasionally unions. Collective bargaining is something I wish I had at my disposal. Not to mention I could use it to make life better for my colleagues overseas. No reason they should be paid any or much less than anyone else. They work hard, and we should band together.

hedora 5y ago
Everyone should have the right to collective bargaining. The US is a closed shop country, which means that, once a union is in place, it has an effective monopoly for the workers that work for one of its companies. If we switched to open shop, then unions would have to compete for membership. Of course, the existing unions are strongly against this. As an end result, everyone I know that's been a union member in the last twenty years strongly dislikes unions.
- VictorPath 5y ago
  The stockholders and board of a company have an effective monopoly on workers as well. Why not just have an open company where workers can choose their management in the circumstances in which their surplus labor time is being expropriated?
- mountainb 5y ago
  The only "workers" who come out ahead in unionized workplaces under current federal labor law are the lawyers.
  - coliveira 5y ago
    This is true in so many areas that, by itself, it doesn't really say anything about unions.
- Spivak 5y ago
  Isn't open-shop effectively "no union" in practice? What threat does a union have when the company can just hire non-union workers?
  - germinalphrase 5y ago
    Unions often train their members and self-enforce safety standards. Both of these things provide a higher quality labor pool for the employer.
    - hn_version_0023 5y ago
      Is that relevant in our race-to-the-bottom world where every last corner is cut? I am strongly pro-union, but I don’t actually see corps seeing your point as a positive.
      - BuckRogers 5y ago
        International unions would prevent that. Can't cut corners if everyone you hire is united to ensure everyone is treated equally by the company.
    - ceeplusplus 5y ago
      Training members for an unskilled job doesn't really improve the value delivered by that worker. You can see why employers would not see that as a benefit of a union. Skilled jobs like the trades are already differentiated based on skill and reputation through the contract bidding process.
  - kmonsen 5y ago
    I was a union rep when working in Norway, I guess it was open-shop since we had two different unions. In practice we cooperated a lot, and the largest benefit was the it gave us access to lawyers that could answer questions quickly so the members were more willing to push back on unreasonable requests. We were never close to going to a lawsuit against the company, it was more "hey this is breaking the law, how do we work together to fix it".
- jjulius 5y ago
  >As an end result, everyone I know that's been a union member in the last twenty years strongly dislikes unions. Hi! Union member from ~2005-2011. Appreciated being in mine and strongly support a more unionized workforce.
  - dylan604 5y ago
    Why the end date to your membership? No longer in that field of work?
    - jjulius 5y ago
      That's a bingo!
- huitzitziltzin 5y ago
  > The US is a closed shop country, which means that, once a union is in place, it has an effective monopoly for the workers that work for one of its companies. This is not correct: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_shop https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_shop The US is not a closed shop country.
- rossdavidh 5y ago
  Well it depends on the state: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law Like a lot of things about employment, housing, medical insurance, etc. it varies quite a bit between states.
- mywittyname 5y ago
  This is a text-book example of being a victim of your own success. People have had the perks of union membership for so long, that they no long attribute them to the union. All they see are the costs of the union. Also, I feel like it's safe to assume that you don't know any teachers or police officers? Both those groups seem to very much support their unions.
  - jedberg 5y ago
    Most teachers I know, and I know a lot of them, don't really like their union because their union is ineffective. If it actually worked for them, they'd be making wages commensurate with their required education levels.
    - ceejayoz 5y ago
      Wages are typically one of many priorities for a union. I know a couple teachers who tried the charter school thing and discovered non-union teaching has its own issues.
      - brimble 5y ago
        Non-elite private schools often have worse comp and/or working conditions than public schools in the same area. Which is surprising to some who assume "private school = big bucks", but there are lots of charter schools or religious private schools (which is most private schools, AFAIK) where that's definitely not the case.
        jessaustin 5y ago
        When I lived in Los Angeles, a friend who taught at an "elite" private school also reported worse compensation than at comparable public schools.
    - coolso 5y ago
- zjaffee 5y ago
  My mom's been in a union for 30+ years and is absolutely a fan of it despite not always liking every decision they make. It's like hating democratic governance, not every democratic decision made is one you're going to agree with, but overall it gives you the ability to shape the future of your workplace in a way you'd never have the ability to otherwise.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - BuckRogers 5y ago
    It is democracy in effect. "The worst system, except all the others" applies to both quite well.
- Animats 5y ago
  No, the US is not a closed shop country. Not since 1947. The US goes no further than a union shop. In a union ship, the employer can hire, the union can insist that the employee join the union, and the union must let them join.
- vkou 5y ago
  Weird, of the ~15 people I know who have been in unions, exactly two of them have been unhappy with them. Meanwhile, of the hundreds of people I know, most of them have been unhappy with their employers at one point or another...
  - jfjfkfmf 5y ago
    Of the thousands of public school students I know, all know at least one unqualified teacher.
    - relaxing 5y ago
      Everyone here knows multiple unqualified coworkers.
      - vkou 5y ago
        And some of us are those unqualified coworkers!
- maybelsyrup 5y ago
  > As an end result, everyone I know that's been a union member in the last twenty years strongly dislikes unions. Been in a union for 8 years. Strong like.
- BuckRogers 5y ago
  Union decline is correlated with the collapse in standard of living, which is only held up by (or was) by cheap goods from Communist countries. Not a great thing to support if you value your freedom. My wife is in a union, and is not strongly against them. In fact, they're the reason she makes a six-figure salary. She also has a robust contract to prevent abuse. I am non-union as a developer and am pretty much over a barrel. It's a no brainer to work in a licensed, union career for most people. The only losers are the owners. I have been a manager in a union shop though. And had no issues with the union. In fact, companies get the union that they deserve.
chrisseaton 5y ago
> That said, everyone working a job has a right to a union. Note for interest that this is not literally true. Some people work in jobs where unionisation is illegal, or where unionisation is legal but union action is illegal.
- hbrav 5y ago
  It could be a sentiment rather than a statement of legal fact. Like "everyone has the right to free speech, healthcare, and three hot meals a day".
seibelj 5y ago
Should also have the right to work at a company and NOT have to join the union, and negotiate your own conditions / wages independently.
- cwmma 5y ago
  This is a textbook example of loosing at the prisoner's dilemma due to selfishness. The only way you get a better contract then the union is if the company intentionally does it to spite the union.
  - seibelj 5y ago
    You are authoritarian - forcing people to do something that should be accomplished voluntarily is antithetical to freedom
    - djrobstep 5y ago
      Why is it authoritarian and bad to be forced to interact with the union, but fine to be forced to interact with management?
      - seibelj 5y ago
        Can always get a new job. But if every company has a monopoly union, can’t avoid that. Really don’t understand the reasoning to not making union membership voluntary. Completely illogical. Basically you agree it’s authoritarian but “it’s better than the alternative” which is bullshit.
        djrobstep 5y ago
        Can always get a new job. But if every company has shareholders, can’t avoid that. Really don’t understand the reasoning to not making contributing to shareholder profit voluntary. Completely illogical. Basically you agree it’s authoritarian but “it’s better than the alternative” which is bullshit.

hedora 5y ago

Everyone should have the right to collective bargaining. The US is a closed shop country, which means that, once a union is in place, it has an effective monopoly for the workers that work for one of its companies. If we switched to open shop, then unions would have to compete for membership. Of course, the existing unions are strongly against this. As an end result, everyone I know that's been a union member in the last twenty years strongly dislikes unions.

VictorPath 5y ago
The stockholders and board of a company have an effective monopoly on workers as well. Why not just have an open company where workers can choose their management in the circumstances in which their surplus labor time is being expropriated?
mountainb 5y ago
The only "workers" who come out ahead in unionized workplaces under current federal labor law are the lawyers.
- coliveira 5y ago
  This is true in so many areas that, by itself, it doesn't really say anything about unions.
Spivak 5y ago
Isn't open-shop effectively "no union" in practice? What threat does a union have when the company can just hire non-union workers?
- germinalphrase 5y ago
  Unions often train their members and self-enforce safety standards. Both of these things provide a higher quality labor pool for the employer.
  - hn_version_0023 5y ago
    Is that relevant in our race-to-the-bottom world where every last corner is cut? I am strongly pro-union, but I don’t actually see corps seeing your point as a positive.
    - BuckRogers 5y ago
      International unions would prevent that. Can't cut corners if everyone you hire is united to ensure everyone is treated equally by the company.
  - ceeplusplus 5y ago
    Training members for an unskilled job doesn't really improve the value delivered by that worker. You can see why employers would not see that as a benefit of a union. Skilled jobs like the trades are already differentiated based on skill and reputation through the contract bidding process.
- kmonsen 5y ago
  I was a union rep when working in Norway, I guess it was open-shop since we had two different unions. In practice we cooperated a lot, and the largest benefit was the it gave us access to lawyers that could answer questions quickly so the members were more willing to push back on unreasonable requests. We were never close to going to a lawsuit against the company, it was more "hey this is breaking the law, how do we work together to fix it".
jjulius 5y ago
>As an end result, everyone I know that's been a union member in the last twenty years strongly dislikes unions. Hi! Union member from ~2005-2011. Appreciated being in mine and strongly support a more unionized workforce.
- dylan604 5y ago
  Why the end date to your membership? No longer in that field of work?
  - jjulius 5y ago
    That's a bingo!
huitzitziltzin 5y ago
> The US is a closed shop country, which means that, once a union is in place, it has an effective monopoly for the workers that work for one of its companies. This is not correct: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_shop https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_shop The US is not a closed shop country.
rossdavidh 5y ago
Well it depends on the state: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law Like a lot of things about employment, housing, medical insurance, etc. it varies quite a bit between states.
mywittyname 5y ago
This is a text-book example of being a victim of your own success. People have had the perks of union membership for so long, that they no long attribute them to the union. All they see are the costs of the union. Also, I feel like it's safe to assume that you don't know any teachers or police officers? Both those groups seem to very much support their unions.
- jedberg 5y ago
  Most teachers I know, and I know a lot of them, don't really like their union because their union is ineffective. If it actually worked for them, they'd be making wages commensurate with their required education levels.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    Wages are typically one of many priorities for a union. I know a couple teachers who tried the charter school thing and discovered non-union teaching has its own issues.
    - brimble 5y ago
      Non-elite private schools often have worse comp and/or working conditions than public schools in the same area. Which is surprising to some who assume "private school = big bucks", but there are lots of charter schools or religious private schools (which is most private schools, AFAIK) where that's definitely not the case.
      - jessaustin 5y ago
        When I lived in Los Angeles, a friend who taught at an "elite" private school also reported worse compensation than at comparable public schools.
  - coolso 5y ago
zjaffee 5y ago
My mom's been in a union for 30+ years and is absolutely a fan of it despite not always liking every decision they make. It's like hating democratic governance, not every democratic decision made is one you're going to agree with, but overall it gives you the ability to shape the future of your workplace in a way you'd never have the ability to otherwise.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- BuckRogers 5y ago
  It is democracy in effect. "The worst system, except all the others" applies to both quite well.
Animats 5y ago
No, the US is not a closed shop country. Not since 1947. The US goes no further than a union shop. In a union ship, the employer can hire, the union can insist that the employee join the union, and the union must let them join.
vkou 5y ago
Weird, of the ~15 people I know who have been in unions, exactly two of them have been unhappy with them. Meanwhile, of the hundreds of people I know, most of them have been unhappy with their employers at one point or another...
- jfjfkfmf 5y ago
  Of the thousands of public school students I know, all know at least one unqualified teacher.
  - relaxing 5y ago
    Everyone here knows multiple unqualified coworkers.
    - vkou 5y ago
      And some of us are those unqualified coworkers!
maybelsyrup 5y ago
> As an end result, everyone I know that's been a union member in the last twenty years strongly dislikes unions. Been in a union for 8 years. Strong like.
BuckRogers 5y ago
Union decline is correlated with the collapse in standard of living, which is only held up by (or was) by cheap goods from Communist countries. Not a great thing to support if you value your freedom. My wife is in a union, and is not strongly against them. In fact, they're the reason she makes a six-figure salary. She also has a robust contract to prevent abuse. I am non-union as a developer and am pretty much over a barrel. It's a no brainer to work in a licensed, union career for most people. The only losers are the owners. I have been a manager in a union shop though. And had no issues with the union. In fact, companies get the union that they deserve.

chrisseaton 5y ago

> That said, everyone working a job has a right to a union. Note for interest that this is not literally true. Some people work in jobs where unionisation is illegal, or where unionisation is legal but union action is illegal.

hbrav 5y ago
It could be a sentiment rather than a statement of legal fact. Like "everyone has the right to free speech, healthcare, and three hot meals a day".

seibelj 5y ago

Should also have the right to work at a company and NOT have to join the union, and negotiate your own conditions / wages independently.

cwmma 5y ago
This is a textbook example of loosing at the prisoner's dilemma due to selfishness. The only way you get a better contract then the union is if the company intentionally does it to spite the union.
- seibelj 5y ago
  You are authoritarian - forcing people to do something that should be accomplished voluntarily is antithetical to freedom
  - djrobstep 5y ago
    Why is it authoritarian and bad to be forced to interact with the union, but fine to be forced to interact with management?
    - seibelj 5y ago
      Can always get a new job. But if every company has a monopoly union, can’t avoid that. Really don’t understand the reasoning to not making union membership voluntary. Completely illogical. Basically you agree it’s authoritarian but “it’s better than the alternative” which is bullshit.
      - djrobstep 5y ago
        Can always get a new job. But if every company has shareholders, can’t avoid that. Really don’t understand the reasoning to not making contributing to shareholder profit voluntary. Completely illogical. Basically you agree it’s authoritarian but “it’s better than the alternative” which is bullshit.