4 ms·

Unions are the most useful when you're dealing with monopolies. Where there is fierce competition in an industry, most workers probably feel that unions are not

by mtgx 5y ago

Unions are the most useful when you're dealing with monopolies. Where there is fierce competition in an industry, most workers probably feel that unions are not needed, as they can get a better paying job by switching companies within the same industry whenever they like. So I wonder if the recent rise in union interest is a symptom of the fact that in the U.S. a lot of industries have been monopolized or oligopolized, and the union option is starting to look increasingly more appealing every year.

munificent 5y ago
> as they can get a better paying job by switching companies within the same industry whenever they like. There's definitely a lot of truth to this, but I think it's also important to note that switching costs for jobs can be very high for employees. People can have deep social ties with coworkers, there is no guarantee that the new job is better so the risk of ending up in a worse position (with possibly burned bridges) has to be factored in. In places where the job market is limited, it can mean moving, which can be very difficult. Even in non-monopolistic areas, employment is very far from an efficient market.
Barrin92 5y ago
>as they can get a better paying job by switching companies within the same industry whenever they like. Most workers are people without college degrees who can't even go a month without a paycheck or afford to move out of pocket. I don't think many Americans even have any direct concept of what unionization is like, because a lot of them have barely ever been part of organized labour in their lifetime, and their only experience with it is a barrage of negative info put out by Amazon or Musk.
rossdavidh 5y ago
Yes, but there is a second requirement for unions (in the US, anyway), which is that they have to have a tight enough labor market to have negotiating leverage. Otherwise, the company just closes the factory/store/warehouse/whatever, and moves it elsewhere. Amazon, in 2022, would appear to satisfy both requirements.
- datavirtue 5y ago
  This is the fundamental flaw with unions in the United States. In other countries, if a company retaliates against their employee union then all the other unions will refuse to do business with that company. The point of unions, which no one in America gets, is that the union should be directly involved in business decisions. So as soon as there is a union, those employees have to allow that plant to close. Management just doesn't get to run around doing as they please. That's the whole fucking point. I'm not interested in being part of a union if the only points of negotiation are pay/hours/benefits. I want a say over profitability overall. Who we do business with and how. What products we offer, and why. And how we service and treat our customers. Google employees banding together to prevent the company from entering certain lines of businesses, for instance. That is progress.
pkaye 5y ago
> So I wonder if the recent rise in union interest is a symptom of the fact that in the U.S. a lot of industries have been monopolized or oligopolized, and the union option is starting to look increasingly more appealing every year. Don't many EU countries have strong unions? Does that imply the industries in those countries are monopolized or oligoplized?
AlexandrB 5y ago
> Where there is fierce competition in an industry, most workers probably feel that unions are not needed, as they can get a better paying job by switching companies within the same industry whenever they like. Unless the biggest players in the industry are colluding against them as was the case with Google, Apple, Adobe, and Intel: https://time.com/76655/google-apple-settle-wage-fixing-lawsuit/ https://time.com/76655/google-apple-settle-wage-fixing-lawsu...

by mtgx 5y ago

munificent 5y ago

> as they can get a better paying job by switching companies within the same industry whenever they like. There's definitely a lot of truth to this, but I think it's also important to note that switching costs for jobs can be very high for employees. People can have deep social ties with coworkers, there is no guarantee that the new job is better so the risk of ending up in a worse position (with possibly burned bridges) has to be factored in. In places where the job market is limited, it can mean moving, which can be very difficult. Even in non-monopolistic areas, employment is very far from an efficient market.

Barrin92 5y ago

>as they can get a better paying job by switching companies within the same industry whenever they like. Most workers are people without college degrees who can't even go a month without a paycheck or afford to move out of pocket. I don't think many Americans even have any direct concept of what unionization is like, because a lot of them have barely ever been part of organized labour in their lifetime, and their only experience with it is a barrage of negative info put out by Amazon or Musk.

rossdavidh 5y ago

Yes, but there is a second requirement for unions (in the US, anyway), which is that they have to have a tight enough labor market to have negotiating leverage. Otherwise, the company just closes the factory/store/warehouse/whatever, and moves it elsewhere. Amazon, in 2022, would appear to satisfy both requirements.

datavirtue 5y ago
This is the fundamental flaw with unions in the United States. In other countries, if a company retaliates against their employee union then all the other unions will refuse to do business with that company. The point of unions, which no one in America gets, is that the union should be directly involved in business decisions. So as soon as there is a union, those employees have to allow that plant to close. Management just doesn't get to run around doing as they please. That's the whole fucking point. I'm not interested in being part of a union if the only points of negotiation are pay/hours/benefits. I want a say over profitability overall. Who we do business with and how. What products we offer, and why. And how we service and treat our customers. Google employees banding together to prevent the company from entering certain lines of businesses, for instance. That is progress.

pkaye 5y ago

> So I wonder if the recent rise in union interest is a symptom of the fact that in the U.S. a lot of industries have been monopolized or oligopolized, and the union option is starting to look increasingly more appealing every year. Don't many EU countries have strong unions? Does that imply the industries in those countries are monopolized or oligoplized?

AlexandrB 5y ago

> Where there is fierce competition in an industry, most workers probably feel that unions are not needed, as they can get a better paying job by switching companies within the same industry whenever they like. Unless the biggest players in the industry are colluding against them as was the case with Google, Apple, Adobe, and Intel: https://time.com/76655/google-apple-settle-wage-fixing-lawsuit/ https://time.com/76655/google-apple-settle-wage-fixing-lawsu...