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At first glance it may seem baffling, but if you see it from the “different culture different values” framework, you realize it’s just how people there want the

At first glance it may seem baffling, but if you see it from the “different culture different values” framework, you realize it’s just how people there want their society to conduct itself. It’s no different, from this perspective, to how baffling may seem cultures where burping loudly in the dinner table is not frowned upon, where people really value their personal space or not, and on and on.

xboxnolifes 5y ago
It's not baffling to me that people don't like people who act this way. I don't like such comments either. What's baffling to me is the punishment given for it. Using the given parallel, I'm not familiar with a case where such punishment was given to someone who burped loudly at their dinner table (or some other social faux pas). It seems currently and historically, such social norms and expectations have been primarily enforced through social shaming and avoidance, rarely government intervention. That's the baffling part to me.
- MadSudaca 5y ago
  What about China’s supposedly social credit system? Maybe government intervention on such “trifling” matters is now possible thanks to IT systems, and we will come to see this as the norm, rather than the exception, as more and more people forcefully or willingly give up some of their liberties in order to have (or merely feel?) more security.
  - xboxnolifes 5y ago
    I'm aware of the existence of China's social credit system, but that's not exactly a system I'm keen on holding up as a something to strive for. This being in the UK, I feel we should look at UK historical norms, not China's.
    - MadSudaca 5y ago
      I get it’s UK and may be the most influential western country in the last 200-300 years. But time goes on, countries evolve and often they do so in unexpected ways. My argument is that, at some point we must detach a country from its past (whatever that means) and accept the direction its constituents are now wanting to take. Even if we personally don’t approve of said direction.
      - ledauphin 5y ago
        I don't think "we" must do anything of the sort. It's important to continue to disagree with things, and articulate the reasons why, even if a majority of some other group supports them.
        seanhandley 5y ago
        > It's important to continue to disagree with things No, it isn't.
      - decremental 5y ago
        Except it's not an evolution. There's nothing organic taking place. It's a concerted, top-down effort to manipulate and coerce populations into going along with things that are expressly against their own freedoms and interests by people who are by any standard their enemies.
        Radim 5y ago
        > a concerted, top-down effort to manipulate and coerce [others] into going along with things [I want]. How is that outside of evolution? Your definition of "organic" seems suspect.
        decremental 5y ago
        If tomorrow the government commanded that the color blue is now to be called red, that would not be an evolution of language. It would not be language evolving organically as language does over time. It would be change by force outside of the way things change naturally on their own.
  - AdrianB1 5y ago
    If you compare UK with China then what is next, North Korea? What is the point of mentioning China, is relevant to the discussion? Is China a model of great society and personal freedoms that other countries should follow?
    - ng12 5y ago
      No, the PRC is a model of a digitally-forward authoritarian regime and we should be shocked that a Western Democracy is behaving similarly.
    - MadSudaca 5y ago
      I don’t know. Personally, I like my freedoms and I wouldn’t like to live under a system implementing social credits as in China (have they done this? I’m not sure). However, I don’t know what will work in the long-run. There’s a lot of things I don’t like about China, but it has done a lot of things right. I also know they have fairly different values to the west, allegedly, a lot more weight put in the wellbeing of the collective, even at the expense of the individual. So I bring China not as to put UK in a worse light, but to put an example of countries implementing these sort of systems of surveillance and enforcement.
xxpor 5y ago
I get the different values part, but even if I set aside the "as an American" free speech issues, 150 hours of community service seems WAY over what's necessary. That's nearly a month of full time work!
syrrim 5y ago
Similarly, some cultures today enjoy the practice of tossing homosexuals from rooves. Before you rush to condemn the practice, recall that they are from a different culture, with different values.
- recuter 5y ago
  I'm sorry, but under the new rules you are now guilty of a hate crime for saying this.
MiddleEndian 5y ago
In the US, I may get kicked out of a dinner for aggressive burping, and Twitter may ban me (and has banned me lol) for whatever reason they want. But nobody's facing legal penalties for it.
inglor_cz 5y ago
I am from such a "different culture", and I hate criminalization of speech. Unfortunately, it is a minor topic in our politics and thus the status quo is likely to stay that way, not to mention that the EU where we are members wouldn't probably let us decriminalize hate speech; the winds in Brussels blow in the other direction. The USA is protected by its Supreme Court and the fact that the Constitution is impossible to amend at this point, but if the younger cohort could vote for criminalization of unpopular speech, I suspect the proposition would actually win. Definitely so on many university campuses.
- autoexec 5y ago
  I agree that they would. It's so disheartening to see how quickly people have been convinced to abandon a freedom people had to fight so hard in order to assert just decades earlier. The folks involved in the Free Speech Movement who have died already are certainly spinning in their graves, but those still alive have to just look at the kids today and wonder where we went wrong.
cortesoft 5y ago
It really depends on if you believe the majority can impose anything they want on a minority. Even if a majority of people in the UK want these rules, we can still argue whether a government has the right to enact that will of the people.

xboxnolifes 5y ago

It's not baffling to me that people don't like people who act this way. I don't like such comments either. What's baffling to me is the punishment given for it. Using the given parallel, I'm not familiar with a case where such punishment was given to someone who burped loudly at their dinner table (or some other social faux pas). It seems currently and historically, such social norms and expectations have been primarily enforced through social shaming and avoidance, rarely government intervention. That's the baffling part to me.

MadSudaca 5y ago
What about China’s supposedly social credit system? Maybe government intervention on such “trifling” matters is now possible thanks to IT systems, and we will come to see this as the norm, rather than the exception, as more and more people forcefully or willingly give up some of their liberties in order to have (or merely feel?) more security.
- xboxnolifes 5y ago
  I'm aware of the existence of China's social credit system, but that's not exactly a system I'm keen on holding up as a something to strive for. This being in the UK, I feel we should look at UK historical norms, not China's.
  - MadSudaca 5y ago
    I get it’s UK and may be the most influential western country in the last 200-300 years. But time goes on, countries evolve and often they do so in unexpected ways. My argument is that, at some point we must detach a country from its past (whatever that means) and accept the direction its constituents are now wanting to take. Even if we personally don’t approve of said direction.
    - ledauphin 5y ago
      I don't think "we" must do anything of the sort. It's important to continue to disagree with things, and articulate the reasons why, even if a majority of some other group supports them.
      - seanhandley 5y ago
        > It's important to continue to disagree with things No, it isn't.
    - decremental 5y ago
      Except it's not an evolution. There's nothing organic taking place. It's a concerted, top-down effort to manipulate and coerce populations into going along with things that are expressly against their own freedoms and interests by people who are by any standard their enemies.
      - Radim 5y ago
        > a concerted, top-down effort to manipulate and coerce [others] into going along with things [I want]. How is that outside of evolution? Your definition of "organic" seems suspect.
        decremental 5y ago
        If tomorrow the government commanded that the color blue is now to be called red, that would not be an evolution of language. It would not be language evolving organically as language does over time. It would be change by force outside of the way things change naturally on their own.
- AdrianB1 5y ago
  If you compare UK with China then what is next, North Korea? What is the point of mentioning China, is relevant to the discussion? Is China a model of great society and personal freedoms that other countries should follow?
  - ng12 5y ago
    No, the PRC is a model of a digitally-forward authoritarian regime and we should be shocked that a Western Democracy is behaving similarly.
  - MadSudaca 5y ago
    I don’t know. Personally, I like my freedoms and I wouldn’t like to live under a system implementing social credits as in China (have they done this? I’m not sure). However, I don’t know what will work in the long-run. There’s a lot of things I don’t like about China, but it has done a lot of things right. I also know they have fairly different values to the west, allegedly, a lot more weight put in the wellbeing of the collective, even at the expense of the individual. So I bring China not as to put UK in a worse light, but to put an example of countries implementing these sort of systems of surveillance and enforcement.

xxpor 5y ago

I get the different values part, but even if I set aside the "as an American" free speech issues, 150 hours of community service seems WAY over what's necessary. That's nearly a month of full time work!

syrrim 5y ago

Similarly, some cultures today enjoy the practice of tossing homosexuals from rooves. Before you rush to condemn the practice, recall that they are from a different culture, with different values.

recuter 5y ago
I'm sorry, but under the new rules you are now guilty of a hate crime for saying this.

MiddleEndian 5y ago

In the US, I may get kicked out of a dinner for aggressive burping, and Twitter may ban me (and has banned me lol) for whatever reason they want. But nobody's facing legal penalties for it.

inglor_cz 5y ago

I am from such a "different culture", and I hate criminalization of speech. Unfortunately, it is a minor topic in our politics and thus the status quo is likely to stay that way, not to mention that the EU where we are members wouldn't probably let us decriminalize hate speech; the winds in Brussels blow in the other direction. The USA is protected by its Supreme Court and the fact that the Constitution is impossible to amend at this point, but if the younger cohort could vote for criminalization of unpopular speech, I suspect the proposition would actually win. Definitely so on many university campuses.

autoexec 5y ago
I agree that they would. It's so disheartening to see how quickly people have been convinced to abandon a freedom people had to fight so hard in order to assert just decades earlier. The folks involved in the Free Speech Movement who have died already are certainly spinning in their graves, but those still alive have to just look at the kids today and wonder where we went wrong.

cortesoft 5y ago

It really depends on if you believe the majority can impose anything they want on a minority. Even if a majority of people in the UK want these rules, we can still argue whether a government has the right to enact that will of the people.