3 ms·

You conveniently omit the part about the Moroccan government funding settlement schemes to move Moroccan population to the occupied parts of the Sahara. So now,

You conveniently omit the part about the Moroccan government funding settlement schemes to move Moroccan population to the occupied parts of the Sahara. So now, the majority of the population living there are actually Moroccan settlers, and Morocco wants them to have a vote. Come on, you shouldn't post such one-sided propaganda in HN. The Wikipedia entry for MINURSO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Mission_for_the_Referendum_in_Western_Sahara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Mission_for_the... and the Baker plans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_Plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_Plan contain relatively neutral accounts.

danamit 5y ago
How did Morocco did that? There is 2 types of intensives to move to Sahara that exist right now or existed before: 1- Cheaper prices over there, basic necessities are subsidized, gas is way cheaper. This apply to everyone, people who lived there since forever and those who did come from elsewhere. That's normal no? 2- Social welfare, 3 times the grant you'd get as a non-Sahrawi student (while studying in Morocco), and similar advantages for Sahrawi people. This apply only to Sahrawi people, I will compare Western Sahara with Morocco to Chechnya with Russia, it's a net negative on us, costing us so much, but the gov is okay with paying to keep that part of land. Show me any instance of Israeli-style settlements happening in Sahara. You will only be sent there if you are: - Teacher, Doctor... but you might be sent anywhere in Morocco its arbitrary. - Police man, same thing. - Gendarme, same thing. - Soldier (you get paid more while in Sahara, understandable considering the potential risks, still soldier hate it cuz it's a fucking hot desert and many leave once they are relocated there) Other than a public sector job like that, there is no other intensive to go there, basically you go there forced. I am not spreading propaganda, just sharing my point of view. I do not care about Sahara.
mardifoufs 5y ago
Do we do that for every referendum? Should only native catalonians be able to vote in a referendum for independent Catalonia? Do we let anglo canadians vote living in quebec vote for Québec's independence ? Moving from madrid to Barcelona does not make one a Castillian settler. Especially considering how historically, migrations from and into the sahara were extremely common. My own family, on the side of my mother is sahraoui (half from what is now western sahara, and the other half from southern morocco) and used to migrate every few years from Mauritania to the Agadir area and vice versa. Southern moroccan arabic tribes are almost indistinguishable from sahraoui tribes. The line is so blurry much more so than with even between southern and northern moroccans. The language is the same, the customs are very similar, etc. The concept of an independant and separate western sahara was literally a colonial construct that suited spain very well. It would've probably died off if Algeria didn't prop up (what was an irrelevant fringe group like Polisario) to destabilize it's regional rival.
- Al-Khwarizmi 5y ago
  I don't think Catalonia is directly comparable. It's not occupied territory, it's a region/nation that wants to go their own way. Not even the staunchest Catalan separatists defend a referendum where immigrants that arrive from elsewhere in Spain cannot vote. But coming from an invasion makes things rather different. That said, yeah, of course things are not that simple. Some of the people I'm calling settlers have been in Western Sahara for over 40 years, they may have children of voting age who were born there. Why wouldn't they vote in a referendum about the place that they call home, and where they even may have lived for their whole life? So it's not as easy as saying that the Moroccan government is wrong and the Polisario is right. But the GP painted a picture where Morocco is pro-referendum and Western Sahara won't have it, and that's clearly one-sided propaganda. Morocco wants a referendum under their conditions, and Western Sahara under theirs. Morocco has rejected UN-endorsed proposals of referendums, even proposals where Moroccan migrants/settlers would vote as well (see Baker Plan II in the links I posted, or elsewhere, of course). And all of this is in the context that started with the Green March, an invasion condemned by the UN that was made by Morocco, among other reasons... to prevent a referendum. So yeah, you of course have some valid points, but the GP's message is clearly propaganda.
  - mardifoufs 5y ago
    I agree that morocco would never really let WS become independant and would only let a referundum happen if it is sure to win it. So I think you are totally right on that.

danamit 5y ago

How did Morocco did that? There is 2 types of intensives to move to Sahara that exist right now or existed before: 1- Cheaper prices over there, basic necessities are subsidized, gas is way cheaper. This apply to everyone, people who lived there since forever and those who did come from elsewhere. That's normal no? 2- Social welfare, 3 times the grant you'd get as a non-Sahrawi student (while studying in Morocco), and similar advantages for Sahrawi people. This apply only to Sahrawi people, I will compare Western Sahara with Morocco to Chechnya with Russia, it's a net negative on us, costing us so much, but the gov is okay with paying to keep that part of land. Show me any instance of Israeli-style settlements happening in Sahara. You will only be sent there if you are: - Teacher, Doctor... but you might be sent anywhere in Morocco its arbitrary. - Police man, same thing. - Gendarme, same thing. - Soldier (you get paid more while in Sahara, understandable considering the potential risks, still soldier hate it cuz it's a fucking hot desert and many leave once they are relocated there) Other than a public sector job like that, there is no other intensive to go there, basically you go there forced. I am not spreading propaganda, just sharing my point of view. I do not care about Sahara.

mardifoufs 5y ago

Do we do that for every referendum? Should only native catalonians be able to vote in a referendum for independent Catalonia? Do we let anglo canadians vote living in quebec vote for Québec's independence ? Moving from madrid to Barcelona does not make one a Castillian settler. Especially considering how historically, migrations from and into the sahara were extremely common. My own family, on the side of my mother is sahraoui (half from what is now western sahara, and the other half from southern morocco) and used to migrate every few years from Mauritania to the Agadir area and vice versa. Southern moroccan arabic tribes are almost indistinguishable from sahraoui tribes. The line is so blurry much more so than with even between southern and northern moroccans. The language is the same, the customs are very similar, etc. The concept of an independant and separate western sahara was literally a colonial construct that suited spain very well. It would've probably died off if Algeria didn't prop up (what was an irrelevant fringe group like Polisario) to destabilize it's regional rival.

Al-Khwarizmi 5y ago
I don't think Catalonia is directly comparable. It's not occupied territory, it's a region/nation that wants to go their own way. Not even the staunchest Catalan separatists defend a referendum where immigrants that arrive from elsewhere in Spain cannot vote. But coming from an invasion makes things rather different. That said, yeah, of course things are not that simple. Some of the people I'm calling settlers have been in Western Sahara for over 40 years, they may have children of voting age who were born there. Why wouldn't they vote in a referendum about the place that they call home, and where they even may have lived for their whole life? So it's not as easy as saying that the Moroccan government is wrong and the Polisario is right. But the GP painted a picture where Morocco is pro-referendum and Western Sahara won't have it, and that's clearly one-sided propaganda. Morocco wants a referendum under their conditions, and Western Sahara under theirs. Morocco has rejected UN-endorsed proposals of referendums, even proposals where Moroccan migrants/settlers would vote as well (see Baker Plan II in the links I posted, or elsewhere, of course). And all of this is in the context that started with the Green March, an invasion condemned by the UN that was made by Morocco, among other reasons... to prevent a referendum. So yeah, you of course have some valid points, but the GP's message is clearly propaganda.
- mardifoufs 5y ago
  I agree that morocco would never really let WS become independant and would only let a referundum happen if it is sure to win it. So I think you are totally right on that.