8 ms·

Flint is an hour East of here. They are still having problems with lead in the water there. First they replaced all the water mains. While it reduced lead le

by rmason 5y ago

Flint is an hour East of here. They are still having problems with lead in the water there. First they replaced all the water mains. While it reduced lead levels it didn't completely fix the problem. Then they replaced the pipes running from the mains to the house. That helped a lot (entire sections of the city are lead free) but those still having problems believe it's in the pipes in the house. There isn't a will among state government to tear up the houses to replace all the pipes. If this works it could help those still suffering.

jansan 5y ago
If the remaining lead is caused by the pipes inside the houses, how come this problem is isolated to Flint? Shouldn't there be the same level of lead all over the US? Maybe they are only measuring lead levels in Flint, because it was they were very high at the beginning.
- sitharus 5y ago
  Flint switched their water source to one that was more corrosive, which resulted in much more lead entering the water. It was down to water chemistry. Water without the corrosive elements won’t pick up much lead.
- AngryData 5y ago
  Most places are smart enough to not falsify water test reports so they can skimp on pH balancing treatment so the water isn't acidic to save literal pennies. The water coming in was acidic enough for the local hospitals to complain about their stainless steel sinks rusting from it. Even if there was no lead in any of the pipes they would have had to replace the entire water system because it ate right through their steel pipes which otherwise had been coated in mineral deposits to protect it.
YATA0 5y ago
>There isn't a will among state government to tear up the houses to replace all the pipes. Nor is there money to fund such a project.
- rmason 5y ago
  Sorry to sound cynical but it's a question of priorities. Michigan just gave General Motors $2 billion to build two EV battery plants, one in Lansing and the other in Detroit which will create 3,000 jobs. The billions are coming from Federal COVID money. The state caused Flint's problem by discontinuing water from Detroit and pulling from a local river without adding a required chemical. This decision was made by an emergency manager appointed by the then governor to save money. This manager took power away from the elected mayor and city council.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    I can't believe paying 750 000$ for a job is ever considered a good idea. If your goal really is only to provide jobs you might as well start a public works program instead of shoveling money to the private sector.
    - kmonsen 5y ago
      Who is going to pay you lobbying money if you do that? Much better to pay 750k and get 10k back as campaign contributions.
    - trashtester 5y ago
      If it is a one-time sum, it may actually make economic sense over some reasonable time period. Consider: 1 industrial job may lead to : - 1-2 jobs in private services in the same area - 1-2 jobs in public services in the same area - industrial activity that can be taxed later - in the case of electric batteries, there may even be some environmental benefits that have value - once the facility is located to some location, it may be expected to grow over time, creating even more jobs and taxable corporate profits In other words, each direct job can easily be around 4 jobs total. Future taxes from 4 jobs + corporate profits (and other taxes) + expected growth + the value environmental benefits may very well be worth the $750 up front investment.
      - sudosysgen 5y ago
cyber_kinetist 5y ago
Yeah, the Flint water crisis is not a science problem at all, it’s something that could just be solved plainly by fixing infrastructure. Obviously, great accomplishment for the high schoolers, but right now this news is just becoming another excuse for institutions that actually have power to do anything about this to keep doing nothing about it.
- robbedpeter 5y ago
  There are entanglements - to remove and replace some of the pipe requires removing and disposing of asbestos, or updating or replacing materials or structural elements of a house. A contractor or homeowner can't simply replace plumbing and ignore everything else, and property value is garbage for those houses even if they fix everything up. They could waive code requirements and grandfather in exceptions that would allow focus on the plumbing but there isn't necessarily a simple answer to the issues facing these people. Who wants to spend a ton of money on a property declining in value in a notorious market? And even if there was a clear and easy path to fix things what effect is lead exposure having on their cognition? Gotta solve for potential pathologies, obstinacy economics, labor rights, and so forth - it's not a simple home project even if it should be. Filters start to look like a better solution in the face of politics and bureacracy.
  - mjevans 5y ago
    Waiting for 'an act of god' like a tornado or a great Chicago fire event to force the issue appears to be the default option.
  - TaylorAlexander 5y ago
    I mean if the government wanted they could identify homes that are too expensive to repair, put the residents up in temporary housing, remove and replace the home with a simple new one, and put the residents back. The federal government gives hundreds of billions to big corporations every year in tax breaks, incentives, contracts, and protection, but we would balk at giving individuals safe homes.
    - 5y ago
rasz 5y ago
Im sorry, but using consumable filters instead of installing few meters of PEX inside a house sounds insane.
WalterBright 5y ago
Take a look at homes in Europe built before indoor plumbing. The plumbing is added to the outside of the house. Doing this in Flint would greatly reduce the expense. Or at a bare minimum, add a lead-free faucet for the drinking water.
- sundae 5y ago
  I've never seen this anywhere but in the UK. I guess it works there because of relatively the mild winters? Michigan on the other side, has a continental climate.
  - zip1234 5y ago
    Drain pipes on the outside are fairly common. I'm not sure about water lines though.
    - ChoGGi 5y ago
      Pretty standard in trailer parks. You'll need some heat tape in the winter to keep it from freezing, but I'd say that's a good trade off for less lead.
- ars 5y ago
  > The plumbing is added to the outside of the house Does it not freeze in Europe? If they did that in Flint the pipes would freeze in the winter.
  - Cthulhu_ 5y ago
    Glad you pointed it out, there was something that didn't quite add up there. Yes it freezes in europe, those pipes would get destroyed if they were on the outside. It's probably easier to replace pipes in an older European house anyway; less insulation / less layered walls, less things embedded in concrete, sometimes even wood beam floors. I lived in a >100 year old house that was renovated at some point, newer pipes and electricity was put up against the walls, then a layer of drywall was applied everywhere to make things look tidy.
refurb 5y ago
For all the concern about Flint and lead in the water, I was shocked to learned that despite lead levels in the water increasing, lead blood levels in children were still much lower than a decade earlier. They did increase, but they were still less than half the level in 2006. The study, which appears in the Journal of Pediatrics, found a decrease in Flint childhood blood lead levels, from 2.33 micrograms per deciliter in 2006 to 1.15 micrograms per deciliter in 2016 — a historic low for the city. The mean blood lead level in 2015 during the height of the water crisis was 1.3 micrograms per deciliter, up from 1.19 in 2014 before the water source switch. https://www.jpeds.com/article/S0022-3476(17)31758-4/fulltext https://www.jpeds.com/article/S0022-3476(17)31758-4/fulltext
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- eppsilon 5y ago
  Could that be due to the long decline of blood lead levels after the phase-out of unleaded gasoline? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7969125/#t2 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7969125/#t2 Incredible that lead in the water had such a relatively small effect, though.
  - maxerickson 5y ago
    People were complaining to the city council about water quality 8 months after the switch to the water source that caused high water lead levels (and were likely concerned well before that). The lead isn't an immediate problem if the water chemistry is correctly maintained, the pipes develop scale and there isn't a lot of material being dissolved into the water. The presence of lead infrastructure of course requires that the water chemistry be correctly maintained so that it does not disturb the pipe scale. So it can be the case that the total exposure from the problem was somewhat limited.
  - refurb 5y ago
    This is blood lead levels in children, so it more likely exposure at home through things like lead paint.
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
I have seen a technique where they line old pipes with newer plastic, like pumping an inner tube into an existing line; is that possible with the pipes in the house or would that cost too much of its diameter? Could they make a <1mm lining like that (which may need to be reapplied every once in a while), or some other kind of treatment to stop the lead from leaching? I mean that would still cost a lot of money and time to implement in every house that still has lead pipes, but it's probably cheaper than replacing all the pipes.
- NickNameNick 5y ago
  They've been using that lining technique for sewage and stormwater pipes near where I live. I'm not sure how it will translate to much narrower pipes with tighter bends.
- mjevans 5y ago
  I think most of those technologies are point to point linings. I also assume curves in the pipe cause 'issues'. The other side of this is, if these houses have lead pipes and need a full water system gut (and probably the replacement of every device that touches the water); why stop there and just seal everything else back up. You're _going_ to find all of the horrific issues that existed but no one had seen in the light of day before. Or make all new issues. (For a good reference program on this, watch any of the highlighted construction / make it right shows made by "Mike Holmes" (OK, just the Canadian ones, in the US he's been in new build series only.)) When going that deep to fix the problem there's a substantial risk the whole thing is going to just have to be demoed and something new build to really fix the problem.

by rmason 5y ago

jansan 5y ago

If the remaining lead is caused by the pipes inside the houses, how come this problem is isolated to Flint? Shouldn't there be the same level of lead all over the US? Maybe they are only measuring lead levels in Flint, because it was they were very high at the beginning.

sitharus 5y ago
Flint switched their water source to one that was more corrosive, which resulted in much more lead entering the water. It was down to water chemistry. Water without the corrosive elements won’t pick up much lead.
AngryData 5y ago
Most places are smart enough to not falsify water test reports so they can skimp on pH balancing treatment so the water isn't acidic to save literal pennies. The water coming in was acidic enough for the local hospitals to complain about their stainless steel sinks rusting from it. Even if there was no lead in any of the pipes they would have had to replace the entire water system because it ate right through their steel pipes which otherwise had been coated in mineral deposits to protect it.

YATA0 5y ago

>There isn't a will among state government to tear up the houses to replace all the pipes. Nor is there money to fund such a project.

rmason 5y ago
Sorry to sound cynical but it's a question of priorities. Michigan just gave General Motors $2 billion to build two EV battery plants, one in Lansing and the other in Detroit which will create 3,000 jobs. The billions are coming from Federal COVID money. The state caused Flint's problem by discontinuing water from Detroit and pulling from a local river without adding a required chemical. This decision was made by an emergency manager appointed by the then governor to save money. This manager took power away from the elected mayor and city council.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  I can't believe paying 750 000$ for a job is ever considered a good idea. If your goal really is only to provide jobs you might as well start a public works program instead of shoveling money to the private sector.
  - kmonsen 5y ago
    Who is going to pay you lobbying money if you do that? Much better to pay 750k and get 10k back as campaign contributions.
  - trashtester 5y ago
    If it is a one-time sum, it may actually make economic sense over some reasonable time period. Consider: 1 industrial job may lead to : - 1-2 jobs in private services in the same area - 1-2 jobs in public services in the same area - industrial activity that can be taxed later - in the case of electric batteries, there may even be some environmental benefits that have value - once the facility is located to some location, it may be expected to grow over time, creating even more jobs and taxable corporate profits In other words, each direct job can easily be around 4 jobs total. Future taxes from 4 jobs + corporate profits (and other taxes) + expected growth + the value environmental benefits may very well be worth the $750 up front investment.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago

cyber_kinetist 5y ago

Yeah, the Flint water crisis is not a science problem at all, it’s something that could just be solved plainly by fixing infrastructure. Obviously, great accomplishment for the high schoolers, but right now this news is just becoming another excuse for institutions that actually have power to do anything about this to keep doing nothing about it.

robbedpeter 5y ago
There are entanglements - to remove and replace some of the pipe requires removing and disposing of asbestos, or updating or replacing materials or structural elements of a house. A contractor or homeowner can't simply replace plumbing and ignore everything else, and property value is garbage for those houses even if they fix everything up. They could waive code requirements and grandfather in exceptions that would allow focus on the plumbing but there isn't necessarily a simple answer to the issues facing these people. Who wants to spend a ton of money on a property declining in value in a notorious market? And even if there was a clear and easy path to fix things what effect is lead exposure having on their cognition? Gotta solve for potential pathologies, obstinacy economics, labor rights, and so forth - it's not a simple home project even if it should be. Filters start to look like a better solution in the face of politics and bureacracy.
- mjevans 5y ago
  Waiting for 'an act of god' like a tornado or a great Chicago fire event to force the issue appears to be the default option.
- TaylorAlexander 5y ago
  I mean if the government wanted they could identify homes that are too expensive to repair, put the residents up in temporary housing, remove and replace the home with a simple new one, and put the residents back. The federal government gives hundreds of billions to big corporations every year in tax breaks, incentives, contracts, and protection, but we would balk at giving individuals safe homes.
  - 5y ago

rasz 5y ago

Im sorry, but using consumable filters instead of installing few meters of PEX inside a house sounds insane.

WalterBright 5y ago

Take a look at homes in Europe built before indoor plumbing. The plumbing is added to the outside of the house. Doing this in Flint would greatly reduce the expense. Or at a bare minimum, add a lead-free faucet for the drinking water.

sundae 5y ago
I've never seen this anywhere but in the UK. I guess it works there because of relatively the mild winters? Michigan on the other side, has a continental climate.
- zip1234 5y ago
  Drain pipes on the outside are fairly common. I'm not sure about water lines though.
  - ChoGGi 5y ago
    Pretty standard in trailer parks. You'll need some heat tape in the winter to keep it from freezing, but I'd say that's a good trade off for less lead.
ars 5y ago
> The plumbing is added to the outside of the house Does it not freeze in Europe? If they did that in Flint the pipes would freeze in the winter.
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  Glad you pointed it out, there was something that didn't quite add up there. Yes it freezes in europe, those pipes would get destroyed if they were on the outside. It's probably easier to replace pipes in an older European house anyway; less insulation / less layered walls, less things embedded in concrete, sometimes even wood beam floors. I lived in a >100 year old house that was renovated at some point, newer pipes and electricity was put up against the walls, then a layer of drywall was applied everywhere to make things look tidy.

refurb 5y ago

For all the concern about Flint and lead in the water, I was shocked to learned that despite lead levels in the water increasing, lead blood levels in children were still much lower than a decade earlier. They did increase, but they were still less than half the level in 2006. The study, which appears in the Journal of Pediatrics, found a decrease in Flint childhood blood lead levels, from 2.33 micrograms per deciliter in 2006 to 1.15 micrograms per deciliter in 2016 — a historic low for the city. The mean blood lead level in 2015 during the height of the water crisis was 1.3 micrograms per deciliter, up from 1.19 in 2014 before the water source switch. https://www.jpeds.com/article/S0022-3476(17)31758-4/fulltext https://www.jpeds.com/article/S0022-3476(17)31758-4/fulltext

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
eppsilon 5y ago
Could that be due to the long decline of blood lead levels after the phase-out of unleaded gasoline? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7969125/#t2 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7969125/#t2 Incredible that lead in the water had such a relatively small effect, though.
- maxerickson 5y ago
  People were complaining to the city council about water quality 8 months after the switch to the water source that caused high water lead levels (and were likely concerned well before that). The lead isn't an immediate problem if the water chemistry is correctly maintained, the pipes develop scale and there isn't a lot of material being dissolved into the water. The presence of lead infrastructure of course requires that the water chemistry be correctly maintained so that it does not disturb the pipe scale. So it can be the case that the total exposure from the problem was somewhat limited.
- refurb 5y ago
  This is blood lead levels in children, so it more likely exposure at home through things like lead paint.

Cthulhu_ 5y ago

I have seen a technique where they line old pipes with newer plastic, like pumping an inner tube into an existing line; is that possible with the pipes in the house or would that cost too much of its diameter? Could they make a <1mm lining like that (which may need to be reapplied every once in a while), or some other kind of treatment to stop the lead from leaching? I mean that would still cost a lot of money and time to implement in every house that still has lead pipes, but it's probably cheaper than replacing all the pipes.

NickNameNick 5y ago
They've been using that lining technique for sewage and stormwater pipes near where I live. I'm not sure how it will translate to much narrower pipes with tighter bends.
mjevans 5y ago
I think most of those technologies are point to point linings. I also assume curves in the pipe cause 'issues'. The other side of this is, if these houses have lead pipes and need a full water system gut (and probably the replacement of every device that touches the water); why stop there and just seal everything else back up. You're _going_ to find all of the horrific issues that existed but no one had seen in the light of day before. Or make all new issues. (For a good reference program on this, watch any of the highlighted construction / make it right shows made by "Mike Holmes" (OK, just the Canadian ones, in the US he's been in new build series only.)) When going that deep to fix the problem there's a substantial risk the whole thing is going to just have to be demoed and something new build to really fix the problem.