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From a linked article (https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/duck-sex-and-the-patriarchy https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/duck-

From a linked article (https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/duck-sex-and-the-patriarchy https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/duck-sex...): A female duck’s vaginal barriers cannot shield her from physical harm. On an evolutionary level, though, they protect her in another way—by allowing her to choose the father of her offspring. By using her vaginal barriers, she is able to maintain her sexual autonomy in the face of sexual violence. Our observations also revealed that when a female duck solicits sex with a chosen mate, her cloacal muscles dilate to allow uninhibited entry. The result is that, even for species in which nearly forty per cent of all copulations are violently coerced, only between two and five per cent of ducklings come from extra-pair matings. As a method of contraception, ducks’ vaginal barriers can be ninety-eight-per-cent effective... Is there an equivalent mechanism in human females? Why yes, there is. As one would expect, it's framed as a 'disorder': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaginismus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaginismus No one has seriously examined this as a natural defense against coerced sex, but maybe it's time...

stkdump 5y ago
If I unserstand it right, this is in ducks a defense against contraception, not against coerced sex. Further, if this is supposed to be an argument against legal abortion (I heard before from the anti-abortion crowd, that the body has defenses against unwanted pregnamcy), then the question becomes if this really can be willfully controlled and if we really want to limit the choice making of women to that short period of time, when they are being violated. I think the disorder comes in, when women complain about it to their doctors, i.e. they are unable to control it. So I don't see a reason why it should be considered anything else in such circumstances.
- unfocussed_mike 5y ago
  > Further, if this is supposed to be an argument against legal abortion (I heard before from the anti-abortion crowd, that the body has defenses against unwanted pregnamcy) Most notably the GOP Rep[0] Todd Akin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Akin#Comments_on_%22legitimate_rape%22_and_pregnancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Akin#Comments_on_%22legit... [0] short for "reprehensible" in this case
deleted 5y ago
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tsimionescu 5y ago
> Our observations also revealed that when a female duck solicits sex with a chosen mate, her cloacal muscles dilate to allow uninhibited entry. > Is there an equivalent mechanism in human females? Why yes, there is. As one would expect, it's framed as a 'disorder': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaginismus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaginismus Hve you tried putting these two pieces of the puzzle together? They are pretty clear I think: Vaginismus is a disorder because it affects women who are trying to have consensual sexual relations. If it were only happening when someone was trying to coerce sexual relations, it would NOT have been labeled a disorder. Simple as that.
- fractallyte 5y ago
  From Wikipedia (with references): However, the term vaginismus is sometimes used more broadly to refer to any muscle spasms occurring during the insertion of some or all types of objects into the vagina, sexually motivated or otherwise, including the usage of speculums and tampons. So not necessarily a disorder, but a reaction; and if that's the case, it deserves more investigation, particularly given how widespread rape is. Then women might not need something like Rape-aXe (https://rape-axe.com/ https://rape-axe.com/)
  - unfocussed_mike 5y ago
    > So not necessarily a disorder, but a reaction; and if that's the case, it deserves more investigation, particularly given how widespread rape is. Is there widespread evidence of rape victims experiencing vaginismus as a protective reaction at the moment of attack (as opposed to them experiencing it as a disorder in a post-rape-trauma context?)
  - fluoridation 5y ago
    Yes, the spasms by themselves are not a disorder. They're only considered a disorder when the woman is trying to have consensual sex. I honestly don't know what argument you're trying to put forward. >Then women might not need something like Rape-aXe (https://rape-axe.com/ https://rape-axe.com/) The spasms by themselves are ineffective at preventing forceful penetration. If they were effective there would be no rape, or at least no penetrative vaginal rape. The reason such a device is desired is precisely because it's ineffective.

stkdump 5y ago

If I unserstand it right, this is in ducks a defense against contraception, not against coerced sex. Further, if this is supposed to be an argument against legal abortion (I heard before from the anti-abortion crowd, that the body has defenses against unwanted pregnamcy), then the question becomes if this really can be willfully controlled and if we really want to limit the choice making of women to that short period of time, when they are being violated. I think the disorder comes in, when women complain about it to their doctors, i.e. they are unable to control it. So I don't see a reason why it should be considered anything else in such circumstances.

unfocussed_mike 5y ago
> Further, if this is supposed to be an argument against legal abortion (I heard before from the anti-abortion crowd, that the body has defenses against unwanted pregnamcy) Most notably the GOP Rep[0] Todd Akin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Akin#Comments_on_%22legitimate_rape%22_and_pregnancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Akin#Comments_on_%22legit... [0] short for "reprehensible" in this case

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tsimionescu 5y ago

> Our observations also revealed that when a female duck solicits sex with a chosen mate, her cloacal muscles dilate to allow uninhibited entry. > Is there an equivalent mechanism in human females? Why yes, there is. As one would expect, it's framed as a 'disorder': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaginismus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaginismus Hve you tried putting these two pieces of the puzzle together? They are pretty clear I think: Vaginismus is a disorder because it affects women who are trying to have consensual sexual relations. If it were only happening when someone was trying to coerce sexual relations, it would NOT have been labeled a disorder. Simple as that.

fractallyte 5y ago
From Wikipedia (with references): However, the term vaginismus is sometimes used more broadly to refer to any muscle spasms occurring during the insertion of some or all types of objects into the vagina, sexually motivated or otherwise, including the usage of speculums and tampons. So not necessarily a disorder, but a reaction; and if that's the case, it deserves more investigation, particularly given how widespread rape is. Then women might not need something like Rape-aXe (https://rape-axe.com/ https://rape-axe.com/)
- unfocussed_mike 5y ago
  > So not necessarily a disorder, but a reaction; and if that's the case, it deserves more investigation, particularly given how widespread rape is. Is there widespread evidence of rape victims experiencing vaginismus as a protective reaction at the moment of attack (as opposed to them experiencing it as a disorder in a post-rape-trauma context?)
- fluoridation 5y ago
  Yes, the spasms by themselves are not a disorder. They're only considered a disorder when the woman is trying to have consensual sex. I honestly don't know what argument you're trying to put forward. >Then women might not need something like Rape-aXe (https://rape-axe.com/ https://rape-axe.com/) The spasms by themselves are ineffective at preventing forceful penetration. If they were effective there would be no rape, or at least no penetrative vaginal rape. The reason such a device is desired is precisely because it's ineffective.