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Easy for me to imagine. We simulate every atom of a brain. If the simulation is accurate it should think. The only thing that would make that not possible is be

Easy for me to imagine. We simulate every atom of a brain. If the simulation is accurate it should think. The only thing that would make that not possible is believing in some kind of spirit. After that it's just optimizations. Are their algorithms to simulate atoms faster. Is every aspect of those atoms important to the simulation. Can you instead simulate molecules instead of atoms. Or larger structures. Etc... I'm not saying that is how we will arrive at AGI but it is arguably a logical path that should lead there of something else doesn't come first.

ux-app 5y ago
what if there're those pesky quantum thingamajiggies which make simulating in silicon impossible?
- p1esk 5y ago
  Silicon is made out of atoms, which also have quantum effects, and we actually rely on these effects to design transistors. Quantum mechanics has been around for 100 years. What's impossible to simulate?
  - jollybean 5y ago
    This is a bit glibly wrong. That we understand there are certain quantum effects at play already does not mean we understand them to the degree necessary to control them. We do not understand quantum effects to the degree necessary in order to 'simulate' anything down to a certain level. Moreover, even if we could, it would have nothing to do with understanding the computational nature of 'the mind'.
chrisco255 5y ago
It's not a logical path. Because at the atomic level, chaos theory takes over. You could not, with a mathematically deterministic model, ever hope to simulate that sort of chaotic structure. You would simply have a rough estimate. But by chaos theory we know that if the inputs are off by even the smallest amount the outputs over time become exponentially unpredictable and divergent. We can use simulations as estimates, as rough guidelines, but not as universes on a chip. That sort of thing is impossible.
- lern_too_spel 5y ago
  If that were true, the brain itself could not work. Clearly, there are stabilizing systems within the brain that lead to outputs that don't result in immediate death. Similarly, ANNs have many local minima that can all perform a task well.
  - chrisco255 5y ago
    No, I am speaking of the creation of a simulation of a working brain from the atomic level, Which is impossible. The brain works fine because it is made of real atoms in the real universe. It is not a model. It is physical. Chaos theory does not say that the outputs of a system cannot be bounded by physical limitations.
    - windows2020 5y ago
      Could there somehow be a pattern deep within the chaos that biological life propagates?
    - lern_too_spel 5y ago
      Chaos theory says that in some systems, slight perturbations result in wildly different outcomes. Slight perturbations happen in brains all the time, yet they work. It's nothing to do with physical vs. simulation.
jollybean 5y ago
"Easy for me to imagine. We simulate every atom of a brain." ??? First, it's not easy too imagine 'modelling every atom in the brain' - we don't even know how 'atoms' work, we're a ways from that. Moreover, 'every atom' still doesn't imply some kind of logical basis. The scale, detail, and complexity implies 'Magical Thinking'/ Philosophical arguments aside, it's not just about 'more nodes'.

ux-app 5y ago

what if there're those pesky quantum thingamajiggies which make simulating in silicon impossible?

p1esk 5y ago
Silicon is made out of atoms, which also have quantum effects, and we actually rely on these effects to design transistors. Quantum mechanics has been around for 100 years. What's impossible to simulate?
- jollybean 5y ago
  This is a bit glibly wrong. That we understand there are certain quantum effects at play already does not mean we understand them to the degree necessary to control them. We do not understand quantum effects to the degree necessary in order to 'simulate' anything down to a certain level. Moreover, even if we could, it would have nothing to do with understanding the computational nature of 'the mind'.

chrisco255 5y ago

It's not a logical path. Because at the atomic level, chaos theory takes over. You could not, with a mathematically deterministic model, ever hope to simulate that sort of chaotic structure. You would simply have a rough estimate. But by chaos theory we know that if the inputs are off by even the smallest amount the outputs over time become exponentially unpredictable and divergent. We can use simulations as estimates, as rough guidelines, but not as universes on a chip. That sort of thing is impossible.

lern_too_spel 5y ago
If that were true, the brain itself could not work. Clearly, there are stabilizing systems within the brain that lead to outputs that don't result in immediate death. Similarly, ANNs have many local minima that can all perform a task well.
- chrisco255 5y ago
  No, I am speaking of the creation of a simulation of a working brain from the atomic level, Which is impossible. The brain works fine because it is made of real atoms in the real universe. It is not a model. It is physical. Chaos theory does not say that the outputs of a system cannot be bounded by physical limitations.
  - windows2020 5y ago
    Could there somehow be a pattern deep within the chaos that biological life propagates?
  - lern_too_spel 5y ago
    Chaos theory says that in some systems, slight perturbations result in wildly different outcomes. Slight perturbations happen in brains all the time, yet they work. It's nothing to do with physical vs. simulation.

jollybean 5y ago

"Easy for me to imagine. We simulate every atom of a brain." ??? First, it's not easy too imagine 'modelling every atom in the brain' - we don't even know how 'atoms' work, we're a ways from that. Moreover, 'every atom' still doesn't imply some kind of logical basis. The scale, detail, and complexity implies 'Magical Thinking'/ Philosophical arguments aside, it's not just about 'more nodes'.