5 ms·

Yes, but RMS is simply wrong, here. Jobs has put great software into more hands than RMS ever did. Jobs might well have (indirectly) had an even more positive

by leot 15y ago

Yes, but RMS is simply wrong, here. Jobs has put great software into more hands than RMS ever did. Jobs might well have (indirectly) had an even more positive influence on FOSS by spreading BSD. (I'm not saying that there isn't a ton of FOSS out there in lots of hands -- but RMS isn't responsible for its being there in the same way Jobs is responsible. Jobs is responsible for the iPhone. RMS isn't responsible for Android.)

saurik 15y ago
(BSD != "Free" => Mac OS X != "Open". Jobs "spreading BSD" is therefore irrelevant, and probably explains the downvotes you are receiving, if you or anyone else are at all curious.)
cookiecaper 15y ago
RMS makes no comment about "great software" in the post. He says that Jobs "made computers as a jail 'cool'" (paraphrase), and I think to a great extent that's true -- Apple has always been the most aggressively locked-down computer maker. Although OS X uses several open-source internals and although Apple even maintains some of these (including very important ones, like CUPS and X), they are still in some ways the most "locked down" computer (and consumer electronic) maker out there.
- leot 15y ago
  RMS is wrong insofar as he believes that FOSS exclusively will result in more people having better software than if there is FOSS + ~FOSS.
  - cookiecaper 15y ago
    The post in question makes no mention of FOSS exclusively resulting in better software than FOSS + non-FOSS. Are you just debating Stallman's generic platform here? Seems a bit off-topic to me...
    - leot 15y ago
      RMS is glad Jobs is gone. This means he thinks Jobs' non-FOSS is a net negative for the world. [edit of first sentence for clarity]
      - masklinn 15y ago
        Which is perfectly in line with pretty much all of his life and advocacy: for RMS, user potential freedom (to much around with the internals of his device, software and hardware) trumps everything. Therefore, as somebody making locked-down everything and locked-down everything cool Jobs was a nemesis figure. It makes perfect sense for Stallman to be glad he retired from current affairs, that Jobs had to retire due to death does not really enter in his thinking because as far as he's concerned it's a completely separate issue. Those demonizing him for his comments are just idiots.
- wazoox 15y ago
  > le has always been the most aggressively locked-down computer maker. Actually this isn't the case. Back in Apple II times, they provided the most hacker-friendly, fully documented hardware and software, together with the built-in rom assembly listing. But this was Woz' creation (über-hacker par excellence), not Jobs'.
  - cookiecaper 15y ago
    Indeed. My reading is primarily that Jobs and Woz had an internal battle over the hackability of the Apple II and that Woz won out (as far as I'm aware, for unspecified reasons). Subsequent projects (Mac) have not followed the same pattern. RMS's gripe with Jobs seems to be that he played a very active role in transforming computing from an open, academic activity based on information sharing to a completely proprietary profit center. In the early 80s, some openness was expected. Releasing a computer without expansion slots then is like releasing a phone where you can't even replace your own battery now.
marshray 15y ago
Jobs has put great software into more hands than RMS ever did. You do realize that Apple has been dependent on GCC to build its products for most of Jobs' second tenure, don't you? Some of that is code that RMS personally wrote. The GPL license that, again, RMS personally wrote covers the kernel of the Android system. "Great software" that's in "more hands" than Jobs' devices. Jobs was a slick businessman like Gates. RMS wrote fucking GCC. Guess who's contribution I value more.
- leot 15y ago
  That RMS wrote the GPL, or extended LLNL's Pastel compiler into GCC, does not endow him with responsibility for the success of all free software. Do you really think, given the influence of academia, that there would be no FOSS-equivalent compiler available but for RMS's efforts? Jobs is responsible for Apple's success. For repeatedly creating devices that have disrupted industries. RMS deserves credit for his contributions, but it is not all-thanks-to-him that we have FOSS. Yes Apple's software has been closed. But has this been at the expense of FOSS, as RMS claims? Has Apple actively tried to subvert the GPL by lobbying governments to avoid FOSS? Has Jobs publicly whined about the GPL? Has he engaged in OOXML-esque bad-faith efforts to keep data formats proprietary?
  - alecco 15y ago
    Keep moving the point of the conversation to fit your anti-Stallman flaming.
    - leot 15y ago
      The point was that RMS is wrong when he asserts[1] that Apple and Jobs have hurt the development of free software. [1] RMS: "we all deserve the end of Jobs' malign influence on people's computing"
      - burgerbrain 15y ago
        Jobs popularized the walled garden.

by leot 15y ago

saurik 15y ago

(BSD != "Free" => Mac OS X != "Open". Jobs "spreading BSD" is therefore irrelevant, and probably explains the downvotes you are receiving, if you or anyone else are at all curious.)

cookiecaper 15y ago

RMS makes no comment about "great software" in the post. He says that Jobs "made computers as a jail 'cool'" (paraphrase), and I think to a great extent that's true -- Apple has always been the most aggressively locked-down computer maker. Although OS X uses several open-source internals and although Apple even maintains some of these (including very important ones, like CUPS and X), they are still in some ways the most "locked down" computer (and consumer electronic) maker out there.

leot 15y ago
RMS is wrong insofar as he believes that FOSS exclusively will result in more people having better software than if there is FOSS + ~FOSS.
- cookiecaper 15y ago
  The post in question makes no mention of FOSS exclusively resulting in better software than FOSS + non-FOSS. Are you just debating Stallman's generic platform here? Seems a bit off-topic to me...
  - leot 15y ago
    RMS is glad Jobs is gone. This means he thinks Jobs' non-FOSS is a net negative for the world. [edit of first sentence for clarity]
    - masklinn 15y ago
      Which is perfectly in line with pretty much all of his life and advocacy: for RMS, user potential freedom (to much around with the internals of his device, software and hardware) trumps everything. Therefore, as somebody making locked-down everything and locked-down everything cool Jobs was a nemesis figure. It makes perfect sense for Stallman to be glad he retired from current affairs, that Jobs had to retire due to death does not really enter in his thinking because as far as he's concerned it's a completely separate issue. Those demonizing him for his comments are just idiots.
wazoox 15y ago
> le has always been the most aggressively locked-down computer maker. Actually this isn't the case. Back in Apple II times, they provided the most hacker-friendly, fully documented hardware and software, together with the built-in rom assembly listing. But this was Woz' creation (über-hacker par excellence), not Jobs'.
- cookiecaper 15y ago
  Indeed. My reading is primarily that Jobs and Woz had an internal battle over the hackability of the Apple II and that Woz won out (as far as I'm aware, for unspecified reasons). Subsequent projects (Mac) have not followed the same pattern. RMS's gripe with Jobs seems to be that he played a very active role in transforming computing from an open, academic activity based on information sharing to a completely proprietary profit center. In the early 80s, some openness was expected. Releasing a computer without expansion slots then is like releasing a phone where you can't even replace your own battery now.

marshray 15y ago

Jobs has put great software into more hands than RMS ever did. You do realize that Apple has been dependent on GCC to build its products for most of Jobs' second tenure, don't you? Some of that is code that RMS personally wrote. The GPL license that, again, RMS personally wrote covers the kernel of the Android system. "Great software" that's in "more hands" than Jobs' devices. Jobs was a slick businessman like Gates. RMS wrote fucking GCC. Guess who's contribution I value more.

leot 15y ago
That RMS wrote the GPL, or extended LLNL's Pastel compiler into GCC, does not endow him with responsibility for the success of all free software. Do you really think, given the influence of academia, that there would be no FOSS-equivalent compiler available but for RMS's efforts? Jobs is responsible for Apple's success. For repeatedly creating devices that have disrupted industries. RMS deserves credit for his contributions, but it is not all-thanks-to-him that we have FOSS. Yes Apple's software has been closed. But has this been at the expense of FOSS, as RMS claims? Has Apple actively tried to subvert the GPL by lobbying governments to avoid FOSS? Has Jobs publicly whined about the GPL? Has he engaged in OOXML-esque bad-faith efforts to keep data formats proprietary?
- alecco 15y ago
  Keep moving the point of the conversation to fit your anti-Stallman flaming.
  - leot 15y ago
    The point was that RMS is wrong when he asserts[1] that Apple and Jobs have hurt the development of free software. [1] RMS: "we all deserve the end of Jobs' malign influence on people's computing"
    - burgerbrain 15y ago
      Jobs popularized the walled garden.