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Another happy Chromebook user here. Apple has become too expensive when one can easily spec a PC laptop to be far better for less and have money left over for a

Another happy Chromebook user here. Apple has become too expensive when one can easily spec a PC laptop to be far better for less and have money left over for accessories. I can write code on my Chromebook (Linux), I have an SSH terminal for remote servers, and a great, always-on and updated machine. Total cost: $650 (Pixelbook Go). I've never understood why so many programmers and sysadmins feel the need to go straight to the Mac without considering any other option. I have an issued laptop from work running Fedora 35 and I in no way feel like I'm missing out. I'm not impugning Mac users, but it sometimes feels as if some of them have a holier-than-thou attitude towards anything not Apple.

bnt 5y ago
Where can I learn more about web development on Chromebooks? I thought it was just Chrome made to boot as an OS, not that you have full Linux access.
- dijit 5y ago
  I guess running gitpods or code-server counts? I'll admit to salivating over this way of working, all the grunt happening somewhere else but my keystrokes being low latency (since they're locally rendered and lazily synced by the web browser). But anyone who says a chromebook is comparable to a macbook is smoking something. I'm not even saying that as an Apple Lover, I use linux, but I'm aware of the limitations of the platforms. IME most people use macs not because they think they're better than everyone else; but because the development experience is very "happy path" -- and the hardware build quality is high.
- LordDragonfang 5y ago
  ChromeOS has natively supported running full linux containers for a several years, with basically full GUI support. You can essentially treat it as a normal linux dev machine whose browser lives outside your chroot.
bitwize 5y ago
What are you talking about? Apple offers the most powerful laptop on the market, with the lowest power draw and longest battery life, for the price of a midrange PC laptop.
- tomrod 5y ago
  > the most powerful laptop on the market In what way?
  - dijit 5y ago
    Unsure where you've been for the last year, but there's no laptop that has a better single thread performance or GPU. Even at twice the power draw and expense, there's nothing quite as good as a macbook at the moment. However, this requires you to be using ARM and not x86, and it requires you to use MacOS which has _interesting_ performance characteristics for certain workloads.
    - hu3 5y ago
      M1 is a beast. But Intel 11th and 12th gen laptop processors beat M1 in single-core processing. See chart: https://i.imgur.com/KoNjGq5.png https://i.imgur.com/KoNjGq5.png Here's an article from 3 months ago comparing them: https://www.pcworld.com/article/608419/laptop-brawl-apples-m1-max-vs-intels-12th-gen-core-i9-flagship.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/608419/laptop-brawl-apples-m... (that intel laptop beat M1 Pro in multi-core too) (and M1's integrated GPU got destroyed by RTX 3080 laptops in OpenCL but that could be due to architecture/emulation) I think it's not a fair comparison since M1 runs much more efficiently. Almost different purposes.
      - dijit 5y ago
        You might be right but your citations of cinebench are misleading, geekbench has much different performance numbers, the m1 is only beaten by a brand new and much more power hungry/thermal cpu. It’s also not exactly an indicator of real world performance which is why I avoided linking to benchmarks. It's possible the M1 has been dethroned for single core performance, but what you link is not a good comparison. Claims of future performance are going to be met with a clear shrug because ultimately I've been able to put my hands on an M1 for over a year, theoretical future CPUs are absolutely no consequence. Additionally what is failed to mention here is how much battery life you get. Which, Apple is easily leading on. I'm quite envious of the M1 to be perfectly honest, for the thermal envelope it's unbeaten, and its barely being challenged one year on. But you'll take my Dell Precision and my Linux installation from my cold dead hands.
godot 5y ago
I would've written something just like this a few years ago, but when the M1 was released, things really changed. It really is a lot faster than most other laptops for many types of work, and especially so for its price point.
torginus 5y ago
I'm not sure - what makes a Chromebook cheaper than similarly specced regular laptop? I've looked at price/perf/quality and they seem to be fairly comparable. Why not just buy a regular laptop and put Chrome OS on it?
- LordDragonfang 5y ago
  As a frequent Chromebook user, Google does a lot of work on the touchpad drivers to make it a pleasant experience that you don't usually see outside Apple.
- thegreenandgrey 5y ago
  You can't just put Chrome OS on any laptop. It's cheaper by far, and there's not dealing with cruft building up, updates mangling your install, patch Tuesday nonsense, slowing down over time, drive-by downloads, you name it. I admit that I do most of my work on remote machines, so I don't have to have a machine with heaps of horsepower to crunch code, compile, etc. I also don't use an IDE. I write code in a terminal window. I'm not a pure programmer, more dev/ops. I do work with a fair amount of code, but it's all Linux (Bash, Python) or PowerShell based, meaning the majority of my work is done in terminal windows. This approach doesn't work for everyone. My work-issued laptop runs Fedora 35 and it's a lower-end machine (i5 processor, 8GB RAM, run-of-the-mill Dell workstation laptop). I can use Remmina for RDP stuff, and the rest I can do with a terminal window.
deltarholamda 5y ago
>I've never understood why so many programmers and sysadmins feel the need to go straight to the Mac without considering any other option. One reason I like my Mac is because the number of options is so limited. More or less, all modern Macs are pretty good. Solid machines, good OS, good long-term support, few surprises. Just pick your price range. Chromebooks? Well, I'm glad you found one that you like, but from what I've seen of others' choices, it's a bit of a mixed bag. Some are okay, some are great, some are crappy, and there isn't necessarily a good cue (like price) to tell the difference. I've done laptop Linux in the past (well, Linux and various BSDs), and the top recommendation for any problem you have with it is to change distros. When I was 26, okay, yeah, I liked doing that. I'm well and truly over that now. I'm aware that it's a heck of a lot better these days, but even so, it still seems like a bit of a moving target. Another thing in Apple's favor is their hardware is quite good. The $600 Chromebook will be worth zip in a year, while I could probably get a significant percentage of the sticker price for my Macbook. Not that I'd sell it, because my previous 2011 Macbook lasted (with some upgrades) as my main axe for a decade. That's not nothing. I think the sysadmins and programmers aren't just moo-mooing like cattle when they go for the Mac. They often have particular and very good reasons. E.g., in my case, I'd rather go back to a clay tablet and pointy stick than give up BBEdit.
- thegreenandgrey 5y ago
  You make some good points. For me, my Chromebook, if still working in a couple of years, will be handed down to my kids to watch YouTube and surf the net. I rarely sell computers once I've used them. While Apple does offer iCloud as a backup, I dislike storing anything locally. This is where Google really shines. If something happens to this Chromebook that's fatal, I take a ball peen hammer to the SSD and screen, chuck it in the trash, buy a new one, and in less than 5 minutes, I am back up and running with almost nothing to configure. This is hard to beat. Since I do most of my work on remote servers, I really don't need more than this, but I understand why others do and can appreciate it. I guess I'm just tired of quite a few people I work around looking at me and my choices with disdain because they're not Apple. I have nothing against Apple HW or SW. It's not my need or want, but I understand why others feel differently.
leetcrew 5y ago
I personally don't like osx, but I see why developers and sysadmins go for them. it's nice to have a product with "good enough" posix compatibility that is supported by a large company. the price doesn't really matter to the individual when it's paid by their employer. and a wise employer recognizes that a brand new MBP is still a very small part of the total cost to employ an FTE.
Forgeties79 5y ago
>Apple has become too expensive I’d argue the new Mac mini is one of the best computer deals on the market.
bertjk 5y ago
> I've never understood why so many programmers and sysadmins feel the need to go straight to the Mac without considering any other option. One reason is availability. Chances are, the PC laptop you took such pains to spec out are not nearly as available in case you need one on short notice. If I dropped my Macbook in the ocean this morning, I can walk into an Apple store and have a reasonable replacement by afternoon. Unless your PC specs are ok with random consumer/gaming laptops from Best Buy, you are likely looking at several days minimum wait, probably a lot more if they happen to be at the point in the product cycle where last year's model is in low stock and next year's hasn't come in yet.
- goosedragons 5y ago
  Apple also have this problem. If you want a laptop with 2TB+ storage you must get it as a BTO option. Or if you want a 14" machine with 32GB RAM. You have to be happy with Apple's random SKU choices that go light on SSD and RAM choices but heavy on CPU performance. Either pay a bunch more to get CPU performance you may not want or need to get the storage and RAM you do need or wait. At least with a lot of PCs you can upgrade RAM/SSD yourself and get it quick from Amazon rather than wait two weeks for the factory in China to do it for you.
opan 5y ago
With the M1 line being ARM, they are now offering something unique, but in the past I would basically agree with you. I'm probably going to buy my first MacBook in the near future just to have an ARM laptop running GNU/Linux that's more powerful than the Pinebook Pro.
ceeplusplus 5y ago
Point me to one competing laptop (Windows or ChromeOS) with: - 10+ hour battery life even when working on periodic compiles, and easily 15+ hours web browsing - high DPI display - faster multicore CPU performance than a Ryzen 5800X desktop CPU - less than 5 lbs - good trackpad and keyboard - decent build quality I believe this doesn't exist outside an M1 Pro/Max MBP. My MBP14 uses less than 0.5W package power during a Zoom meeting, that's less than what modern AMD machines use at _idle_. My old MBP15 used over 2 watts package power at idle. I can hit all threads with a big C++ or Java compile and the fans won't even be audible, and my laptop fits in a backpack and is small enough to use anywhere. The extra cost (~$1000) is not really that big a concern when you make software engineer salaries and your laptop is a tool you use every day on side projects to improve your skills.

bnt 5y ago

Where can I learn more about web development on Chromebooks? I thought it was just Chrome made to boot as an OS, not that you have full Linux access.

dijit 5y ago
I guess running gitpods or code-server counts? I'll admit to salivating over this way of working, all the grunt happening somewhere else but my keystrokes being low latency (since they're locally rendered and lazily synced by the web browser). But anyone who says a chromebook is comparable to a macbook is smoking something. I'm not even saying that as an Apple Lover, I use linux, but I'm aware of the limitations of the platforms. IME most people use macs not because they think they're better than everyone else; but because the development experience is very "happy path" -- and the hardware build quality is high.
LordDragonfang 5y ago
ChromeOS has natively supported running full linux containers for a several years, with basically full GUI support. You can essentially treat it as a normal linux dev machine whose browser lives outside your chroot.

bitwize 5y ago

What are you talking about? Apple offers the most powerful laptop on the market, with the lowest power draw and longest battery life, for the price of a midrange PC laptop.

tomrod 5y ago
> the most powerful laptop on the market In what way?
- dijit 5y ago
  Unsure where you've been for the last year, but there's no laptop that has a better single thread performance or GPU. Even at twice the power draw and expense, there's nothing quite as good as a macbook at the moment. However, this requires you to be using ARM and not x86, and it requires you to use MacOS which has _interesting_ performance characteristics for certain workloads.
  - hu3 5y ago
    M1 is a beast. But Intel 11th and 12th gen laptop processors beat M1 in single-core processing. See chart: https://i.imgur.com/KoNjGq5.png https://i.imgur.com/KoNjGq5.png Here's an article from 3 months ago comparing them: https://www.pcworld.com/article/608419/laptop-brawl-apples-m1-max-vs-intels-12th-gen-core-i9-flagship.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/608419/laptop-brawl-apples-m... (that intel laptop beat M1 Pro in multi-core too) (and M1's integrated GPU got destroyed by RTX 3080 laptops in OpenCL but that could be due to architecture/emulation) I think it's not a fair comparison since M1 runs much more efficiently. Almost different purposes.
    - dijit 5y ago
      You might be right but your citations of cinebench are misleading, geekbench has much different performance numbers, the m1 is only beaten by a brand new and much more power hungry/thermal cpu. It’s also not exactly an indicator of real world performance which is why I avoided linking to benchmarks. It's possible the M1 has been dethroned for single core performance, but what you link is not a good comparison. Claims of future performance are going to be met with a clear shrug because ultimately I've been able to put my hands on an M1 for over a year, theoretical future CPUs are absolutely no consequence. Additionally what is failed to mention here is how much battery life you get. Which, Apple is easily leading on. I'm quite envious of the M1 to be perfectly honest, for the thermal envelope it's unbeaten, and its barely being challenged one year on. But you'll take my Dell Precision and my Linux installation from my cold dead hands.

godot 5y ago

I would've written something just like this a few years ago, but when the M1 was released, things really changed. It really is a lot faster than most other laptops for many types of work, and especially so for its price point.

torginus 5y ago

I'm not sure - what makes a Chromebook cheaper than similarly specced regular laptop? I've looked at price/perf/quality and they seem to be fairly comparable. Why not just buy a regular laptop and put Chrome OS on it?

LordDragonfang 5y ago
As a frequent Chromebook user, Google does a lot of work on the touchpad drivers to make it a pleasant experience that you don't usually see outside Apple.
thegreenandgrey 5y ago
You can't just put Chrome OS on any laptop. It's cheaper by far, and there's not dealing with cruft building up, updates mangling your install, patch Tuesday nonsense, slowing down over time, drive-by downloads, you name it. I admit that I do most of my work on remote machines, so I don't have to have a machine with heaps of horsepower to crunch code, compile, etc. I also don't use an IDE. I write code in a terminal window. I'm not a pure programmer, more dev/ops. I do work with a fair amount of code, but it's all Linux (Bash, Python) or PowerShell based, meaning the majority of my work is done in terminal windows. This approach doesn't work for everyone. My work-issued laptop runs Fedora 35 and it's a lower-end machine (i5 processor, 8GB RAM, run-of-the-mill Dell workstation laptop). I can use Remmina for RDP stuff, and the rest I can do with a terminal window.

deltarholamda 5y ago

>I've never understood why so many programmers and sysadmins feel the need to go straight to the Mac without considering any other option. One reason I like my Mac is because the number of options is so limited. More or less, all modern Macs are pretty good. Solid machines, good OS, good long-term support, few surprises. Just pick your price range. Chromebooks? Well, I'm glad you found one that you like, but from what I've seen of others' choices, it's a bit of a mixed bag. Some are okay, some are great, some are crappy, and there isn't necessarily a good cue (like price) to tell the difference. I've done laptop Linux in the past (well, Linux and various BSDs), and the top recommendation for any problem you have with it is to change distros. When I was 26, okay, yeah, I liked doing that. I'm well and truly over that now. I'm aware that it's a heck of a lot better these days, but even so, it still seems like a bit of a moving target. Another thing in Apple's favor is their hardware is quite good. The $600 Chromebook will be worth zip in a year, while I could probably get a significant percentage of the sticker price for my Macbook. Not that I'd sell it, because my previous 2011 Macbook lasted (with some upgrades) as my main axe for a decade. That's not nothing. I think the sysadmins and programmers aren't just moo-mooing like cattle when they go for the Mac. They often have particular and very good reasons. E.g., in my case, I'd rather go back to a clay tablet and pointy stick than give up BBEdit.

thegreenandgrey 5y ago
You make some good points. For me, my Chromebook, if still working in a couple of years, will be handed down to my kids to watch YouTube and surf the net. I rarely sell computers once I've used them. While Apple does offer iCloud as a backup, I dislike storing anything locally. This is where Google really shines. If something happens to this Chromebook that's fatal, I take a ball peen hammer to the SSD and screen, chuck it in the trash, buy a new one, and in less than 5 minutes, I am back up and running with almost nothing to configure. This is hard to beat. Since I do most of my work on remote servers, I really don't need more than this, but I understand why others do and can appreciate it. I guess I'm just tired of quite a few people I work around looking at me and my choices with disdain because they're not Apple. I have nothing against Apple HW or SW. It's not my need or want, but I understand why others feel differently.

leetcrew 5y ago

I personally don't like osx, but I see why developers and sysadmins go for them. it's nice to have a product with "good enough" posix compatibility that is supported by a large company. the price doesn't really matter to the individual when it's paid by their employer. and a wise employer recognizes that a brand new MBP is still a very small part of the total cost to employ an FTE.

Forgeties79 5y ago

>Apple has become too expensive I’d argue the new Mac mini is one of the best computer deals on the market.

bertjk 5y ago

> I've never understood why so many programmers and sysadmins feel the need to go straight to the Mac without considering any other option. One reason is availability. Chances are, the PC laptop you took such pains to spec out are not nearly as available in case you need one on short notice. If I dropped my Macbook in the ocean this morning, I can walk into an Apple store and have a reasonable replacement by afternoon. Unless your PC specs are ok with random consumer/gaming laptops from Best Buy, you are likely looking at several days minimum wait, probably a lot more if they happen to be at the point in the product cycle where last year's model is in low stock and next year's hasn't come in yet.

goosedragons 5y ago
Apple also have this problem. If you want a laptop with 2TB+ storage you must get it as a BTO option. Or if you want a 14" machine with 32GB RAM. You have to be happy with Apple's random SKU choices that go light on SSD and RAM choices but heavy on CPU performance. Either pay a bunch more to get CPU performance you may not want or need to get the storage and RAM you do need or wait. At least with a lot of PCs you can upgrade RAM/SSD yourself and get it quick from Amazon rather than wait two weeks for the factory in China to do it for you.

opan 5y ago

With the M1 line being ARM, they are now offering something unique, but in the past I would basically agree with you. I'm probably going to buy my first MacBook in the near future just to have an ARM laptop running GNU/Linux that's more powerful than the Pinebook Pro.

ceeplusplus 5y ago

Point me to one competing laptop (Windows or ChromeOS) with: - 10+ hour battery life even when working on periodic compiles, and easily 15+ hours web browsing - high DPI display - faster multicore CPU performance than a Ryzen 5800X desktop CPU - less than 5 lbs - good trackpad and keyboard - decent build quality I believe this doesn't exist outside an M1 Pro/Max MBP. My MBP14 uses less than 0.5W package power during a Zoom meeting, that's less than what modern AMD machines use at _idle_. My old MBP15 used over 2 watts package power at idle. I can hit all threads with a big C++ or Java compile and the fans won't even be audible, and my laptop fits in a backpack and is small enough to use anywhere. The extra cost (~$1000) is not really that big a concern when you make software engineer salaries and your laptop is a tool you use every day on side projects to improve your skills.