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What would your solution be? This is a serious question. Yes, sanctions hurt ordinary people. Yes, there are second order effects that will hurt many people in

What would your solution be? This is a serious question. Yes, sanctions hurt ordinary people. Yes, there are second order effects that will hurt many people in the developing world. But equally, giving in to Putin will create a bigger problem for Ukraine now, and for eastern Europe and Taiwan in future. There are no easy solutions here. Otherwise they would have been taken already.

thepasswordis 5y ago
The original ask from Russia was: Donbas becomes part of Russia, crimea becomes officially part of Russia, Ukraine promises not to join nato, and “denazification” of the Ukrainian government. Ukraine is now offering that to Russia. My ask is that the adults who were screaming at the top of their lungs to take that deal a month ago, were listened to. Further that the people screaming at the top of their lungs that turning a nuclear superpower into an isolationist state, and actively working to collapse their economy, is a suicidally stupid thing, also be listens to.
- Ancapistani 5y ago
  > Ukraine is now offering that to Russia I've not been watching this as closely for the past week or two as I was previously, but I've not seen this. Particularly the "denazification" point seems unlikely to be agreed to by Ukraine. Do you have a source for this claim?
  - thepasswordis 5y ago
    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-sets-ceasefire-goal-new-russia-talks-breakthrough-looks-distant-2022-03-29/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-sets-ceasefire-... Of course the “denazification” thing is dropped. It was nonsense propaganda to begin with. I’m curious where you are following this? This was absolutely huge news at the beginning of this week. It’s really weird to me that wherever you are closely following this didn’t cover it.
    - velcrohacker 5y ago
      Your source does not support your claims.
      - thepasswordis 5y ago
        Yes it does. Read the entire article. Or if you don’t actually care, don’t. But please don’t spread misinformation like this.
        baybal2 5y ago
    - saiya-jin 5y ago
      I don't get people like you - you are seriously contemplating what Putin's PR team announce on given day as some seriously meant opinion that's worth anything. When its exactly opposite, just empty words, full of lies, deceit and lack of anything meaningful. Spending any amount of energy on them is waste of time, next day will next round of demands. You do realize that even if his demands would be met for some reason, there would be another and another round of demands till you have nothing and he has everything. Just random things I recall were mentioned by him/PR in last month - complete demilitarization of Ukraine (so you can defeat whole country with 2 tanks), demilitarization of whole Europe (hinting at his long-term ambitions). Everybody in politics recognizes this and realizes that peace talks are sham, yet another set of lies. War will end exactly and only when he decides it, not a second earlier regardless of whats happening in Ukraine and rest of the world.
      - thepasswordis 5y ago
        Do you think that Reuters is part of some conspiracy to print things from Putins PR team and pass them off as statements by Urkairne?
        ncmncm 5y ago
- velcrohacker 5y ago
  Please provide a source. The last I heard was that Ukraine would agree not to join NATO if it were voted on by Ukraininians after the Russians withdrew completely. Oh, and the other condition is that other countries like the US will guarantee Ukraine's safety, in a framework remarkably similar to Article 5 of the NATO agreement. I have never, ever heard Ukraine agree that Donbas and Crimea would be annexed by Russia.
  - onenukecourse 5y ago
    It doesn't matter what Ukraine wants vis a vis NATO. NATO states have publicly admitted they were egging the Ukrainians along with NATO membership. NATO doesn't want to guarantee Ukraine's sovereignty. They couldn't care less about Ukraine. NATO want to put missiles in Ukrainian and Georgian fields. Now that they've admitted that NATO's out of the question, why would Ukraine agree to make itself a target?
- rr808 5y ago
  The problem with agreeing to the original ask of giving up more land is that it just continues to escalate. in 2014 already Russia took Ukraine and a chunk of Eastern Ukraine. If you give up more this year, what happens in 10 years? Russia will just ask again. Its the same all around the Russian borders. Putin is a thug who just demands more for himself. If you dont fight him now you'll be doing it next year. Here is a great thread about this (read to the end): https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1503053699798769666 https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1503053699798769666 also https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1503768312236421120 https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1503768312236421120
- leesec 5y ago
  Appeasing sycophantic maniacal warring leaders doesn't have a great track record, sorry.
  - thepasswordis 5y ago
    Exactly! And in 2014, when they were invaded, not only did we refuse to honor our obligations as outlined in the Budapest agreement, but we refused to even start sending them weapons to defend themselves until 2017! And then in 2021, the sanctions put in place to keep them in check WRT nordstream2 were lifted! The appeasement is exactly why we’re in the situation that we’re in: completely incompetent (at best) foreign policy appointees fumbling us into a potential global conflict.
- munk-a 5y ago
  Neville Chamberlain agrees that forcing Ukraine to cede land to Russia will solve the problem once and for all - just like it did when we tacitly accepted the permanent Russian occupation of Crimea. It really isn't a secret that Putin is pining for the days of the Soviet Union and wants to reunite the old power block - so why would we ever want to risk sacrificing the stability of the EU to restore the Warsaw Pact and all the international conflicts that came with it?

thepasswordis 5y ago

The original ask from Russia was: Donbas becomes part of Russia, crimea becomes officially part of Russia, Ukraine promises not to join nato, and “denazification” of the Ukrainian government. Ukraine is now offering that to Russia. My ask is that the adults who were screaming at the top of their lungs to take that deal a month ago, were listened to. Further that the people screaming at the top of their lungs that turning a nuclear superpower into an isolationist state, and actively working to collapse their economy, is a suicidally stupid thing, also be listens to.

Ancapistani 5y ago
> Ukraine is now offering that to Russia I've not been watching this as closely for the past week or two as I was previously, but I've not seen this. Particularly the "denazification" point seems unlikely to be agreed to by Ukraine. Do you have a source for this claim?
- thepasswordis 5y ago
  https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-sets-ceasefire-goal-new-russia-talks-breakthrough-looks-distant-2022-03-29/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-sets-ceasefire-... Of course the “denazification” thing is dropped. It was nonsense propaganda to begin with. I’m curious where you are following this? This was absolutely huge news at the beginning of this week. It’s really weird to me that wherever you are closely following this didn’t cover it.
  - velcrohacker 5y ago
    Your source does not support your claims.
    - thepasswordis 5y ago
      Yes it does. Read the entire article. Or if you don’t actually care, don’t. But please don’t spread misinformation like this.
      - baybal2 5y ago
  - saiya-jin 5y ago
    I don't get people like you - you are seriously contemplating what Putin's PR team announce on given day as some seriously meant opinion that's worth anything. When its exactly opposite, just empty words, full of lies, deceit and lack of anything meaningful. Spending any amount of energy on them is waste of time, next day will next round of demands. You do realize that even if his demands would be met for some reason, there would be another and another round of demands till you have nothing and he has everything. Just random things I recall were mentioned by him/PR in last month - complete demilitarization of Ukraine (so you can defeat whole country with 2 tanks), demilitarization of whole Europe (hinting at his long-term ambitions). Everybody in politics recognizes this and realizes that peace talks are sham, yet another set of lies. War will end exactly and only when he decides it, not a second earlier regardless of whats happening in Ukraine and rest of the world.
    - thepasswordis 5y ago
      Do you think that Reuters is part of some conspiracy to print things from Putins PR team and pass them off as statements by Urkairne?
      - ncmncm 5y ago
velcrohacker 5y ago
Please provide a source. The last I heard was that Ukraine would agree not to join NATO if it were voted on by Ukraininians after the Russians withdrew completely. Oh, and the other condition is that other countries like the US will guarantee Ukraine's safety, in a framework remarkably similar to Article 5 of the NATO agreement. I have never, ever heard Ukraine agree that Donbas and Crimea would be annexed by Russia.
- onenukecourse 5y ago
  It doesn't matter what Ukraine wants vis a vis NATO. NATO states have publicly admitted they were egging the Ukrainians along with NATO membership. NATO doesn't want to guarantee Ukraine's sovereignty. They couldn't care less about Ukraine. NATO want to put missiles in Ukrainian and Georgian fields. Now that they've admitted that NATO's out of the question, why would Ukraine agree to make itself a target?
rr808 5y ago
The problem with agreeing to the original ask of giving up more land is that it just continues to escalate. in 2014 already Russia took Ukraine and a chunk of Eastern Ukraine. If you give up more this year, what happens in 10 years? Russia will just ask again. Its the same all around the Russian borders. Putin is a thug who just demands more for himself. If you dont fight him now you'll be doing it next year. Here is a great thread about this (read to the end): https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1503053699798769666 https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1503053699798769666 also https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1503768312236421120 https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1503768312236421120
leesec 5y ago
Appeasing sycophantic maniacal warring leaders doesn't have a great track record, sorry.
- thepasswordis 5y ago
  Exactly! And in 2014, when they were invaded, not only did we refuse to honor our obligations as outlined in the Budapest agreement, but we refused to even start sending them weapons to defend themselves until 2017! And then in 2021, the sanctions put in place to keep them in check WRT nordstream2 were lifted! The appeasement is exactly why we’re in the situation that we’re in: completely incompetent (at best) foreign policy appointees fumbling us into a potential global conflict.
munk-a 5y ago
Neville Chamberlain agrees that forcing Ukraine to cede land to Russia will solve the problem once and for all - just like it did when we tacitly accepted the permanent Russian occupation of Crimea. It really isn't a secret that Putin is pining for the days of the Soviet Union and wants to reunite the old power block - so why would we ever want to risk sacrificing the stability of the EU to restore the Warsaw Pact and all the international conflicts that came with it?