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> Can you explain to me what the long term gain I could expect, exactly, by foregoing a MacOS laptop? You would not be contributing to an ecosystem controlled

> Can you explain to me what the long term gain I could expect, exactly, by foregoing a MacOS laptop? You would not be contributing to an ecosystem controlled by a single entity who is increasingly abusing their dominance to extract more rent from consumers and other developers.

mlyle 5y ago
> You would not be contributing to an ecosystem controlled by a single entity who is increasingly abusing their dominance to extract more rent from consumers and other developers. c.f. > > If you're going to argue about some kind of collective loss by many people making the same choice as me-- that we all lose freedom, etc-- spare me. Tragedy of the commons, etc: not enough people are going to make the choice you're posing to have any significant effect. So, I'd be using my market power to advocate for things that are disproportionately important to you at my own expense. That doesn't seem like "freedom". I've been a Linux user and developer forever. For awhile, I was a kernel subsystem maintainer. I've walked the walk about making free software available and useful. I also believe having a Mac laptop benefits me, and is worth the money, and that it is not morally corrosive. Can you please spare me the judgment that I'm "weak-willed" or stupid for my choice?
- rglullis 5y ago
  > not enough people are going to make the choice you're posing to have any significant effect. A billion flies can not be wrong... I am not personally affected by what you choose to use. I could give two shits about it and go on with my day. It's you who stands to gain or lose - along with all those that make a similar choice. > That doesn't seem like "freedom". You are also free to stuff yourself with sugar, drugs, play russian roulette, sleep around with any willing consenting adult. But no, being free to do X does not mean that X is morally virtuous. And you don't get to say "spare me of your judgement" and you shouldn't be expecting any sympathy if you have to face any consequences when things blow up on your face.
  - mlyle 5y ago
    > A billion flies can not be wrong... This willfully pretends not to understand the argument (I hope). My use of MacOS is not likely to make a big difference in the adoption of MacOS, and therefore ascribing all of the massive network effect of usage to me is a tad unfair. > I am not personally affected by what you choose to use. I could give two shits about it and go on with my day. OK. Personally, I'm doing quite fine with MacOS for my laptop. Thanks for your concern, but you don't need to call names and judge me over it. If you really don't care so much, you can spare us all the invective. > You are also free to stuff yourself with sugar, drugs, play russian roulette All of these things have likely and measurable short term harms to the individual doing them. Using Apple carries some risk of individual and systemic negative effects, but also some benefits (both individually and communally). Note, this is true of all things. I just drove to school to teach some classes to kids. I could have died on the way. There are possibly even better moral choices of where I could spend my time that are given up (opportunity costs). But, I judged this is what I wanted to do and the benefits outweighed the risks. > But no, being free to do X does not mean that X is morally virtuous. I'm pretty sure that I've done way more to make open systems possible on the desktop than you. The fact that one thing I'm doing isn't moving the needle that direction (but isn't hurting it, either) should be OK. Otherwise, you should immediately stop all activity which isn't helping the cause of open-systems-on-desktop to avoid accusations of hypocrisy. > you shouldn't be expecting any sympathy if you have to face any consequences when things blow up on your face. Anyone deserves sympathy when things blow up in their face.
    - rglullis 5y ago
      > My use of MacOS is not likely to make a big difference in the adoption of MacOS, and therefore ascribing all of the massive network effect of usage to me. It's not all to you. But you are contributing to it, and you shouldn't be excusing yourself on the basis of "look at everyone else doing it". > I'm pretty sure that I've done way more to make open systems possible on the desktop than you. This is not a competition to see who is more virtuous or less of a sinner. It is just me arguing that using Apple products is a moral failing. > you should immediately stop all activity which isn't helping the cause of open-systems-on-desktop to avoid accusations of hypocrisy. I am not perfect and I am not free of sin. But at least I am willing to call a failing as such. The first step to redemption is to accept your own faults.

mlyle 5y ago

> You would not be contributing to an ecosystem controlled by a single entity who is increasingly abusing their dominance to extract more rent from consumers and other developers. c.f. > > If you're going to argue about some kind of collective loss by many people making the same choice as me-- that we all lose freedom, etc-- spare me. Tragedy of the commons, etc: not enough people are going to make the choice you're posing to have any significant effect. So, I'd be using my market power to advocate for things that are disproportionately important to you at my own expense. That doesn't seem like "freedom". I've been a Linux user and developer forever. For awhile, I was a kernel subsystem maintainer. I've walked the walk about making free software available and useful. I also believe having a Mac laptop benefits me, and is worth the money, and that it is not morally corrosive. Can you please spare me the judgment that I'm "weak-willed" or stupid for my choice?

rglullis 5y ago
> not enough people are going to make the choice you're posing to have any significant effect. A billion flies can not be wrong... I am not personally affected by what you choose to use. I could give two shits about it and go on with my day. It's you who stands to gain or lose - along with all those that make a similar choice. > That doesn't seem like "freedom". You are also free to stuff yourself with sugar, drugs, play russian roulette, sleep around with any willing consenting adult. But no, being free to do X does not mean that X is morally virtuous. And you don't get to say "spare me of your judgement" and you shouldn't be expecting any sympathy if you have to face any consequences when things blow up on your face.
- mlyle 5y ago
  > A billion flies can not be wrong... This willfully pretends not to understand the argument (I hope). My use of MacOS is not likely to make a big difference in the adoption of MacOS, and therefore ascribing all of the massive network effect of usage to me is a tad unfair. > I am not personally affected by what you choose to use. I could give two shits about it and go on with my day. OK. Personally, I'm doing quite fine with MacOS for my laptop. Thanks for your concern, but you don't need to call names and judge me over it. If you really don't care so much, you can spare us all the invective. > You are also free to stuff yourself with sugar, drugs, play russian roulette All of these things have likely and measurable short term harms to the individual doing them. Using Apple carries some risk of individual and systemic negative effects, but also some benefits (both individually and communally). Note, this is true of all things. I just drove to school to teach some classes to kids. I could have died on the way. There are possibly even better moral choices of where I could spend my time that are given up (opportunity costs). But, I judged this is what I wanted to do and the benefits outweighed the risks. > But no, being free to do X does not mean that X is morally virtuous. I'm pretty sure that I've done way more to make open systems possible on the desktop than you. The fact that one thing I'm doing isn't moving the needle that direction (but isn't hurting it, either) should be OK. Otherwise, you should immediately stop all activity which isn't helping the cause of open-systems-on-desktop to avoid accusations of hypocrisy. > you shouldn't be expecting any sympathy if you have to face any consequences when things blow up on your face. Anyone deserves sympathy when things blow up in their face.
  - rglullis 5y ago
    > My use of MacOS is not likely to make a big difference in the adoption of MacOS, and therefore ascribing all of the massive network effect of usage to me. It's not all to you. But you are contributing to it, and you shouldn't be excusing yourself on the basis of "look at everyone else doing it". > I'm pretty sure that I've done way more to make open systems possible on the desktop than you. This is not a competition to see who is more virtuous or less of a sinner. It is just me arguing that using Apple products is a moral failing. > you should immediately stop all activity which isn't helping the cause of open-systems-on-desktop to avoid accusations of hypocrisy. I am not perfect and I am not free of sin. But at least I am willing to call a failing as such. The first step to redemption is to accept your own faults.