5 ms·

What devices are left that are fairly normal (that normal people might interact with in a given week), mechanical or electromechanical, have at least modest com

What devices are left that are fairly normal (that normal people might interact with in a given week), mechanical or electromechanical, have at least modest complexity, and have no microchips? Locks? Guns? What else? EDIT: perhaps an extra requirement that it's fairly durable, i.e. easily lasts ten years of normal use. EDIT2: maybe it should also fit the requirement that it's a current model in production and that you don't have to go out of your way to find a non-semiconductor version.

stevenwoo 5y ago
Is gas water heater complex enough?
- frosted-flakes 5y ago
  Gas water heaters often have control boards and displays with buttons. The only type that might not are the low-efficiency type with a pilot flame and room air intakes—but even those usually have forced exhaust fans that require some sort of smarts to know when to turn on.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    Your typical $400-$500 tank style gas water heater has none of those things. It has a PCB with some analog circuitry to do sparky magic to light the pilot light. A gas/propane heater or stovetop is basically the same thing in a different form factor. Tankless water heaters are necessarily much more fancy.
    - frosted-flakes 5y ago
      AKA low-efficiency water heaters.
      - chmod600 5y ago
        Can you explain? Are you talking about inline water heaters as the efficient ones? I have only seen the tank style in the U.S. So it seems to fit, though I guess you are implying those will get replaced by something better.
        frosted-flakes 5y ago
        High efficiency condensing water heaters still have a tank.
takk309 5y ago
Older clothes washing machines, maybe? Though, they are getting replaced by machines with ic type controllers too.
selectronics 5y ago
Mechanical watches fit the bill here. Not everyone has them, but they are common enough
frosted-flakes 5y ago
Push lawnmowers, dirtbikes, or chainsaws typically do not have microchips, and they are all quite complex. Also, old elevators often had purely relay logic, and I've heard that it is often more cost-effective to repair old elevators than to replace them outright, so if you live in a really old building the elevator might still be click-clacking away. Then there are washing machines and dryers. Most new models are stuffed to the guts with computer chips, but older styles are still available, new (Speed Queen) or used (appliance refurbishment shops). Old ones are purely electro-mechanical, with some rather ingenious timer boards that do a lot with only a few contacts, a tiny motor, and a large resistor. (I helped repair an old dryer a few months ago: the large resistor is for the dryer's auto dry mode. The wetter the clothes, the more power the heating coils will draw through the resistor, which lowers the voltage of the power the timer motor receives, slowing it down. Once the clothes start getting dry, the voltage goes back up and the timer speeds up again.)
- chmod600 5y ago
  "dirtbikes, or chainsaws typically do not have microchips" Interesting, good examples. "The wetter the clothes, the more power the heating coils will draw through the resistor, which lowers the voltage of the power the timer motor receives, slowing it down. Once the clothes start getting dry, the voltage goes back up and the timer speeds up again." Sounds like this kind of ingenuity is on its way out, though. I expect the vast majority of washers/dryers have semiconductors in today.
- sidpatil 5y ago
  > Push lawnmowers, dirtbikes, or chainsaws typically do not have microchips, and they are all quite complex. Is this still the case for the newer battery electric variants of these tools? The battery itself will have microchips for the BMS, and if those tools are using BLDC motors, those motors will contain a controller likely implemented with microchips.
  - frosted-flakes 5y ago
    Obviously battery-powered tools will have chips. But at this time those are mostly still gas-powered.
aidenn0 5y ago
Can opener Stapler Loud-speakers Shop vac
- chmod600 5y ago
  "Loud speaker" surprises me. Are you sure they don't use semiconductors for amplification?
  - frosted-flakes 5y ago
    Speakers? Definitely not. The amplifier will, but not the loudspeakers. That's basically a magnet, a coil, and a paper cone.
    - renw0rp 5y ago
      And, as someone mentioned above, usually a RLC filter
    - michaelt 5y ago
      Cheap loudspeaker products, like [1] often have built-in amplifiers. [1] https://www.amazon.co.uk/AmazonBasics-Computer-Speakers-Desktop-USB-Powered/dp/B07D7TV5J3 https://www.amazon.co.uk/AmazonBasics-Computer-Speakers-Desk...
- HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
  There's nothing mechanically or electrically complex about a speaker. It's a coil and a magnet attached to a bit of paper/plastic.
  - aidenn0 5y ago
    High-order crossover filter?
    - HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
      Well, if we're going there, we might as well just delve into the whole Active Speaker thing and get into the amplifiers. But a basic speaker (driver) that's been around for decades is essentially a small linear motor: one moving part and very simple in operation.
TacticalCoder 5y ago
> EDIT: perhaps an extra requirement that it's fairly durable, i.e. easily lasts ten years of normal use. Moka pot / press to do coffee. Lasts ten years easily. All my tools and powertools. Some of them are old, really, really old (I've got my "favorite" screwdriver which is 30 years old). Some are manual, some require electricity. Using daily my mechanical watch and my floorstanding loudspeakers which others mentioned. The loudspeakers are hooked to an amp to DAC to computer, so the "chain" is not exactly microchip free though. EDIT: also various types of chimneys and stoves are still microchips free. Although there's a move towards freaking "smart" pellets stove that require electricity, WiFi, that are noisy but, hey, they're programmable. Thanks but no thanks. Good old chimney for me.
- takk309 5y ago
  Tools for sure, power and hand. Aside from a voltage regulating circuit most power tools are super simple, make a thing spin to cut other things. I also love using proper hand tools like a plane or hand saw.
HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
Interesting question. * it's surprising how many dishwashers still use spring-loaded timers to sequence their operations. Although at this point mine is 19 years old so maybe that doesn't count. * Likewise, my iron filter is sequenced by a mechanical timer (run off an electric motor), but my water softener's controller is fully electronic. * A lot of houses still have mechanical mercury thermostats. * The flush valve in your toilet tank is completely mechanical and surprisingly complex. Once you take it completely apart you realize that there's more to it than just a float that shuts off a valve. * I'm always amazed by the centrifugal clutches in weed whackers and small gas-powered lawn appliances. Should be more things I can come up with...
- chmod600 5y ago
  Toilets are a great example, thank you.
- linksnapzz 5y ago
  A lot of houses still have mechanical mercury thermostats. yeah, the houses that have heat. ask an HVAC guy about the new digital thermostats. I'm not even talking about the Nest etc. smart home ones, just the basic new digital ones that croak after three years. Keep the mercury-switch ones as long as you can.
aimor 5y ago
A lot of musical instruments come to mind. Also many plumbing related things in a house such as faucets, temperature shutoff valves, toilets. Manual kitchen gadgets are usually pretty simple but still interesting. Peelers and slicers, pasta machines, oil expeller, scales.
pas 5y ago
I'm still mesmerized by microwave ovens. Sure, all of them now come with a chip, but that part is guaranteed 100% shit (I mean who the fuck designs these unergonomic monsters anyway!?) But the magnetron in them is complex, has to be machined to a high precision, yet they are a pretty old piece of completely analog technology.
- frosted-flakes 5y ago
  Regarding microwave oven ergonomics, the best one I've seen doesn't have old-school dials, but a touch-sensitive slider bar. You may think this is bad, but it works very, very well. The front of the microwave has the time display, the time slider bar, and two buttons: stop/cancel and start/+30sec. Open the door and there are a few auto cook options and power level options. There is no number keypad at all; the slider bar gives you both very fine and coarse-grained control, depending on how fast you slide across it. It's all very intuitive, and I was very impressed with it. https://www.lg.com/us/cooking-appliances/lg-LMC0975ST-counter-top-microwave-oven https://www.lg.com/us/cooking-appliances/lg-LMC0975ST-counte...
  - pas 5y ago
    Oh, and it actually looks slick/sleek :) Recently I interacted with a brand new but old-schoolish one (dials and all), which was only openable by pushing a big analog button (which required a surprising amount of force). And this design seems common despite the totally idiotic UX of pushing a button that slightly opens the door, so then you have to open the door by hand, instead of putting a fucking handle on the door so it could be one move. (Probably because it's that much cheaper to have a door without a handle.)
megablast 5y ago
Bicycles. The greatest form Of transport ever created.
- chmod600 5y ago
  Good one. After reading this thread my list is: * Toilets * Bicycles * Water heaters * Locks * Guns The rest seem either a little too specialized, simple, or already in the process of being replaced by things with microchips. A few of these may be replaced as well (locks?), but it's not quite happening yet.

stevenwoo 5y ago

Is gas water heater complex enough?

frosted-flakes 5y ago
Gas water heaters often have control boards and displays with buttons. The only type that might not are the low-efficiency type with a pilot flame and room air intakes—but even those usually have forced exhaust fans that require some sort of smarts to know when to turn on.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  Your typical $400-$500 tank style gas water heater has none of those things. It has a PCB with some analog circuitry to do sparky magic to light the pilot light. A gas/propane heater or stovetop is basically the same thing in a different form factor. Tankless water heaters are necessarily much more fancy.
  - frosted-flakes 5y ago
    AKA low-efficiency water heaters.
    - chmod600 5y ago
      Can you explain? Are you talking about inline water heaters as the efficient ones? I have only seen the tank style in the U.S. So it seems to fit, though I guess you are implying those will get replaced by something better.
      - frosted-flakes 5y ago
        High efficiency condensing water heaters still have a tank.

takk309 5y ago

Older clothes washing machines, maybe? Though, they are getting replaced by machines with ic type controllers too.

selectronics 5y ago

Mechanical watches fit the bill here. Not everyone has them, but they are common enough

frosted-flakes 5y ago

Push lawnmowers, dirtbikes, or chainsaws typically do not have microchips, and they are all quite complex. Also, old elevators often had purely relay logic, and I've heard that it is often more cost-effective to repair old elevators than to replace them outright, so if you live in a really old building the elevator might still be click-clacking away. Then there are washing machines and dryers. Most new models are stuffed to the guts with computer chips, but older styles are still available, new (Speed Queen) or used (appliance refurbishment shops). Old ones are purely electro-mechanical, with some rather ingenious timer boards that do a lot with only a few contacts, a tiny motor, and a large resistor. (I helped repair an old dryer a few months ago: the large resistor is for the dryer's auto dry mode. The wetter the clothes, the more power the heating coils will draw through the resistor, which lowers the voltage of the power the timer motor receives, slowing it down. Once the clothes start getting dry, the voltage goes back up and the timer speeds up again.)

chmod600 5y ago
"dirtbikes, or chainsaws typically do not have microchips" Interesting, good examples. "The wetter the clothes, the more power the heating coils will draw through the resistor, which lowers the voltage of the power the timer motor receives, slowing it down. Once the clothes start getting dry, the voltage goes back up and the timer speeds up again." Sounds like this kind of ingenuity is on its way out, though. I expect the vast majority of washers/dryers have semiconductors in today.
sidpatil 5y ago
> Push lawnmowers, dirtbikes, or chainsaws typically do not have microchips, and they are all quite complex. Is this still the case for the newer battery electric variants of these tools? The battery itself will have microchips for the BMS, and if those tools are using BLDC motors, those motors will contain a controller likely implemented with microchips.
- frosted-flakes 5y ago
  Obviously battery-powered tools will have chips. But at this time those are mostly still gas-powered.

aidenn0 5y ago

Can opener Stapler Loud-speakers Shop vac

chmod600 5y ago
"Loud speaker" surprises me. Are you sure they don't use semiconductors for amplification?
- frosted-flakes 5y ago
  Speakers? Definitely not. The amplifier will, but not the loudspeakers. That's basically a magnet, a coil, and a paper cone.
  - renw0rp 5y ago
    And, as someone mentioned above, usually a RLC filter
  - michaelt 5y ago
    Cheap loudspeaker products, like [1] often have built-in amplifiers. [1] https://www.amazon.co.uk/AmazonBasics-Computer-Speakers-Desktop-USB-Powered/dp/B07D7TV5J3 https://www.amazon.co.uk/AmazonBasics-Computer-Speakers-Desk...
HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
There's nothing mechanically or electrically complex about a speaker. It's a coil and a magnet attached to a bit of paper/plastic.
- aidenn0 5y ago
  High-order crossover filter?
  - HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
    Well, if we're going there, we might as well just delve into the whole Active Speaker thing and get into the amplifiers. But a basic speaker (driver) that's been around for decades is essentially a small linear motor: one moving part and very simple in operation.

TacticalCoder 5y ago

> EDIT: perhaps an extra requirement that it's fairly durable, i.e. easily lasts ten years of normal use. Moka pot / press to do coffee. Lasts ten years easily. All my tools and powertools. Some of them are old, really, really old (I've got my "favorite" screwdriver which is 30 years old). Some are manual, some require electricity. Using daily my mechanical watch and my floorstanding loudspeakers which others mentioned. The loudspeakers are hooked to an amp to DAC to computer, so the "chain" is not exactly microchip free though. EDIT: also various types of chimneys and stoves are still microchips free. Although there's a move towards freaking "smart" pellets stove that require electricity, WiFi, that are noisy but, hey, they're programmable. Thanks but no thanks. Good old chimney for me.

takk309 5y ago
Tools for sure, power and hand. Aside from a voltage regulating circuit most power tools are super simple, make a thing spin to cut other things. I also love using proper hand tools like a plane or hand saw.

HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago

Interesting question. * it's surprising how many dishwashers still use spring-loaded timers to sequence their operations. Although at this point mine is 19 years old so maybe that doesn't count. * Likewise, my iron filter is sequenced by a mechanical timer (run off an electric motor), but my water softener's controller is fully electronic. * A lot of houses still have mechanical mercury thermostats. * The flush valve in your toilet tank is completely mechanical and surprisingly complex. Once you take it completely apart you realize that there's more to it than just a float that shuts off a valve. * I'm always amazed by the centrifugal clutches in weed whackers and small gas-powered lawn appliances. Should be more things I can come up with...

chmod600 5y ago
Toilets are a great example, thank you.
linksnapzz 5y ago
A lot of houses still have mechanical mercury thermostats. yeah, the houses that have heat. ask an HVAC guy about the new digital thermostats. I'm not even talking about the Nest etc. smart home ones, just the basic new digital ones that croak after three years. Keep the mercury-switch ones as long as you can.

aimor 5y ago

A lot of musical instruments come to mind. Also many plumbing related things in a house such as faucets, temperature shutoff valves, toilets. Manual kitchen gadgets are usually pretty simple but still interesting. Peelers and slicers, pasta machines, oil expeller, scales.

pas 5y ago

I'm still mesmerized by microwave ovens. Sure, all of them now come with a chip, but that part is guaranteed 100% shit (I mean who the fuck designs these unergonomic monsters anyway!?) But the magnetron in them is complex, has to be machined to a high precision, yet they are a pretty old piece of completely analog technology.

frosted-flakes 5y ago
Regarding microwave oven ergonomics, the best one I've seen doesn't have old-school dials, but a touch-sensitive slider bar. You may think this is bad, but it works very, very well. The front of the microwave has the time display, the time slider bar, and two buttons: stop/cancel and start/+30sec. Open the door and there are a few auto cook options and power level options. There is no number keypad at all; the slider bar gives you both very fine and coarse-grained control, depending on how fast you slide across it. It's all very intuitive, and I was very impressed with it. https://www.lg.com/us/cooking-appliances/lg-LMC0975ST-counter-top-microwave-oven https://www.lg.com/us/cooking-appliances/lg-LMC0975ST-counte...
- pas 5y ago
  Oh, and it actually looks slick/sleek :) Recently I interacted with a brand new but old-schoolish one (dials and all), which was only openable by pushing a big analog button (which required a surprising amount of force). And this design seems common despite the totally idiotic UX of pushing a button that slightly opens the door, so then you have to open the door by hand, instead of putting a fucking handle on the door so it could be one move. (Probably because it's that much cheaper to have a door without a handle.)

megablast 5y ago

Bicycles. The greatest form Of transport ever created.

chmod600 5y ago
Good one. After reading this thread my list is: * Toilets * Bicycles * Water heaters * Locks * Guns The rest seem either a little too specialized, simple, or already in the process of being replaced by things with microchips. A few of these may be replaced as well (locks?), but it's not quite happening yet.