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I feel like this is completely backwards. To me this feels like 'I love using this kind of hammer so let me find all the jobs where I can use this hammer I love

I feel like this is completely backwards. To me this feels like 'I love using this kind of hammer so let me find all the jobs where I can use this hammer I love to use.' I'm actually not interested (at least not primarily interested) in that. I'm more interested in what are you building? What problems are you solving? I'd rather search by that and then see what their tech stack looks like and filter down to the ones matching my interests and the tools I like using. Heck, there may be a company that I'm really interested in what they're doing but I may not have a lot of experience with their particular technology set. I could reach out to them and express my interest in what they're doing and see if it might make sense for me to join them. Focusing on technology feels like putting the cart before the horse.

lkxijlewlf 5y ago
> I feel like this is completely backwards. To me this feels like 'I love using this kind of hammer so let me find all the jobs where I can use this hammer I love to use.' I'm actually not interested (at least not primarily interested) in that. I'm more interested in what are you building? What problems are you solving? Same for me. I can learn whatever tech stack you're using (if need be). I want to know about your business, your product, your future.
- Existenceblinks 5y ago
  But tech stack requirements sit right there in job descriptions. It's about matching.
  - taylodl 5y ago
    Yes they do, but the question is should they? What role should they be playing?
    - Existenceblinks 5y ago
      They shouldn't, though they have few choices. They don't want to admit they chose the wrong tools for the problems, and can we disagree with them .. generally.
  - lkxijlewlf 5y ago
    I generally disregard those requirements if it's a job/domain/business I find interesting. Current gig had requirements I didn't have. And now we have completely different ones from when I was hired.
    - Existenceblinks 5y ago
      It's not well-known nor standard, maybe companies should change how they write job description.
__ryan__ 5y ago
You are talking to a hammer asking why it isn’t a screwdriver.
dotancohen 5y ago
You're a professional. I try to be, as well. But I know many people who call themselves "PHP devs" or "React engineers" or "Wordpress gurus". This service is perfect for them.
- dagw 5y ago
  How does one approach automatically make you more "professional" than the other?
  - dotancohen 5y ago
    There exist professional mechanics, and there exist oil-change technicians. The professional mechanic has literally hundreds of tools, of dozens of different types. The oil-change tech has maybe a dozen tools that he uses in an average week. The professional mechanic studies his craft and learns about suspension, brakes, engines, transmissions, electrical, fuel delivery, spark delivery, sensors, ecus, interior parts such as window motors, air conditioning, fuel pump replacement, diagnosis, etc. The oil-change tech can find the oil filter, screw it off, and screw on another one. Sometimes without even over-tightening it. The "Wordpress Guru" is far more akin to the oil-change technician than to the professional mechanic. He likely does not understand HTTP, let alone TCP/IP, he might google CORS when he has a problem, likely copies code from Stack Overflow without understanding it, and has heard of Big O notation but has never had to apply it to his work. Honestly, I'm probably closer to that extreme than I would like to admit, but I do strive to understand ever line of code I'd be git-blamed for, and think that I understand two levels below the technologies that I do use on a day-to-day basis.
    - dagw 5y ago
      At the same time, I'm sure there are mechanics that love Ferrari, know everything about every Ferrari ever made and don't want a job where they don't get to work on Ferrari's. I wouldn't see that as sign of lack of professionalism.
      - taylodl 5y ago
Xenixo 5y ago
It's one tool of many I like the idea. I don't want to go back to a company which is not using kubernetes for example. I'm also interested in deepening my expertise in it.
beecafe 5y ago
I don't care one mote about solving problems. I program because it's fun and I'm good at it, so I have no space for bullshit MBA puff like "solving problems" (it's not) "making people's lives better with technology" (it never has or will). So for me working in a place where I get to use the tools I enjoy is more important than whatever flavor of the week justification is given for the rent we are seeking from and new problems we create for consumers.
- mwcampbell 5y ago
  It's unfortunate that this cynicism is so widespread, because technology actually does solve problems and make people's lives better. I suppose I'm lucky to be working in a domain, accessibility for blind people, where this is obvious. But I'm sure there are many other such areas.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    It can, but parent's cynicism is very understandable if one looks around at the hot new exciting technology of today and compares it to the hot new exciting technology of decades past. Pretty much the entire high-paying tech space right now is either solving non-problems or actively creating and promoting problems.
  - znpy 5y ago
    It's not cynicism, sadly. There are a ton of jobs that are tool-heavy, and the "solving problems" only applies to a small percentage of the team. Some problems should not exist at all and only exists because of the tooling chosen. Example: A friend of mine works at a company that is running their business on some clown-ish cloud infrastructure, and their SREs have to basically re-invent the wheel to work around the limitations of the cloud vendor the management has chosen (for example: no virtual machine autoscaling, in a cloud environment). Somebody at that company is certainly doing "creative work" and "solving problems" with code, but not those SREs.
- arcturus17 5y ago
  If software does not solve problems, what are you getting paid for, exactly? For the weight of the line of code?
francisofascii 5y ago
I think your are underestimating the time it takes to become proficient in a technology stack. You can't build anything until you learn it. When you are proficient, is nice to be able to come into a completely new business environment and be somewhat productive. It feels like validation that you are actually an expert in something. Now it is commendable and a great growth experience to come in as a newbie with no knowledge of the business and the technology, but still a hard pill to swallow for most.
- taylodl 5y ago
  > It feels like validation that you are actually an expert in something. You're an expert in knowing how to use a hammer. I think it's the wrong focus. Instead we should be focusing on whether you're a framer, a carpenter, a roofer, etc. It's your expertise in solving particular kinds of problems that makes you valuable, not in knowing how to use a particular tool. As an aside, some people have noted this is not true for IT contractors - as they are oftentimes brought in explicitly for their expertise in a tool. I would argue that's a reason why a lot of people don't want to be a contractor forever.
mettamage 5y ago
> Focusing on technology feels like putting the cart before the horse. Every language has its own ecosystem, its own frameworks, its own culture its own set of "best practices". Good luck learning them all.
- FourHand451 5y ago
  I don't think they're saying they can learn them all. Just the next one, if it can be applied to an interesting problem.
  - taylodl 5y ago
    Correct. The languages I learn outside of my day job are languages that teach me new ways of thinking about problems: Lisp and Haskell are two that come to mind. Do I expect to get a job where these languages are used? No. I learned them because it gave me insights for becoming better at my craft. It makes me better at solving problems using the languages actually being used where I work.
sokoloff 5y ago
It’s almost like people choose companies based on different factors. Some are coin-operated. Some are language/stack-driven. Some want fast-growing; some want slow-and-steady. Others like small companies. Others like large stable companies.
anyfactor 5y ago
As a "Python Developer" this is for me. There are some demand for specific language based developer instead of purpose based developer. Case in point - Scala. There are Data Engineers and there are Scala Developers. There are some overlap but if you are an employer looking for Scala help, you need a Scala Developer and not someone who tolerates Scala in their stack. For me, Python always provides the shortest path to solving problems programmatically. It is the best thing you can use to prove a concept before you build something. Python sits appropriately in the middle of pseudo code and something performant. I get to solve unique problems rapidly. That fits my philosophy. If you are comfortable in using something why not get paid to do that. I am open to learning new things particularly Typescript but I am just comfortable in a Python environment more than a JavaScript or any other environment. The catch with all that is that I am more fitted for contract roles as opposed to full time jobs. For the employer hiring based on tech introduces too much rigidity. They want contractors and experts for that.
dagw 5y ago
As someone who is more of a domain expert who knows a fair bit of programming, rather than an expert programmer, I would certainly be reluctant of taking a job where I wasn't allowed to use the tools I prefer for solving problems within that domain.
dagw 5y ago
To me this feels like 'I love using this kind of hammer so let me find all the jobs where I can use this hammer I love to use.' Most craftsmen and artists I know are very particular about their tools and much prefer using their own tools that they've lovingly maintained and gotten to know all the quirks of rather than some random tool someone hands them.

lkxijlewlf 5y ago

> I feel like this is completely backwards. To me this feels like 'I love using this kind of hammer so let me find all the jobs where I can use this hammer I love to use.' I'm actually not interested (at least not primarily interested) in that. I'm more interested in what are you building? What problems are you solving? Same for me. I can learn whatever tech stack you're using (if need be). I want to know about your business, your product, your future.

Existenceblinks 5y ago
But tech stack requirements sit right there in job descriptions. It's about matching.
- taylodl 5y ago
  Yes they do, but the question is should they? What role should they be playing?
  - Existenceblinks 5y ago
    They shouldn't, though they have few choices. They don't want to admit they chose the wrong tools for the problems, and can we disagree with them .. generally.
- lkxijlewlf 5y ago
  I generally disregard those requirements if it's a job/domain/business I find interesting. Current gig had requirements I didn't have. And now we have completely different ones from when I was hired.
  - Existenceblinks 5y ago
    It's not well-known nor standard, maybe companies should change how they write job description.

__ryan__ 5y ago

You are talking to a hammer asking why it isn’t a screwdriver.

dotancohen 5y ago

You're a professional. I try to be, as well. But I know many people who call themselves "PHP devs" or "React engineers" or "Wordpress gurus". This service is perfect for them.

dagw 5y ago
How does one approach automatically make you more "professional" than the other?
- dotancohen 5y ago
  There exist professional mechanics, and there exist oil-change technicians. The professional mechanic has literally hundreds of tools, of dozens of different types. The oil-change tech has maybe a dozen tools that he uses in an average week. The professional mechanic studies his craft and learns about suspension, brakes, engines, transmissions, electrical, fuel delivery, spark delivery, sensors, ecus, interior parts such as window motors, air conditioning, fuel pump replacement, diagnosis, etc. The oil-change tech can find the oil filter, screw it off, and screw on another one. Sometimes without even over-tightening it. The "Wordpress Guru" is far more akin to the oil-change technician than to the professional mechanic. He likely does not understand HTTP, let alone TCP/IP, he might google CORS when he has a problem, likely copies code from Stack Overflow without understanding it, and has heard of Big O notation but has never had to apply it to his work. Honestly, I'm probably closer to that extreme than I would like to admit, but I do strive to understand ever line of code I'd be git-blamed for, and think that I understand two levels below the technologies that I do use on a day-to-day basis.
  - dagw 5y ago
    At the same time, I'm sure there are mechanics that love Ferrari, know everything about every Ferrari ever made and don't want a job where they don't get to work on Ferrari's. I wouldn't see that as sign of lack of professionalism.
    - taylodl 5y ago

Xenixo 5y ago

It's one tool of many I like the idea. I don't want to go back to a company which is not using kubernetes for example. I'm also interested in deepening my expertise in it.

beecafe 5y ago

I don't care one mote about solving problems. I program because it's fun and I'm good at it, so I have no space for bullshit MBA puff like "solving problems" (it's not) "making people's lives better with technology" (it never has or will). So for me working in a place where I get to use the tools I enjoy is more important than whatever flavor of the week justification is given for the rent we are seeking from and new problems we create for consumers.

mwcampbell 5y ago
It's unfortunate that this cynicism is so widespread, because technology actually does solve problems and make people's lives better. I suppose I'm lucky to be working in a domain, accessibility for blind people, where this is obvious. But I'm sure there are many other such areas.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  It can, but parent's cynicism is very understandable if one looks around at the hot new exciting technology of today and compares it to the hot new exciting technology of decades past. Pretty much the entire high-paying tech space right now is either solving non-problems or actively creating and promoting problems.
- znpy 5y ago
  It's not cynicism, sadly. There are a ton of jobs that are tool-heavy, and the "solving problems" only applies to a small percentage of the team. Some problems should not exist at all and only exists because of the tooling chosen. Example: A friend of mine works at a company that is running their business on some clown-ish cloud infrastructure, and their SREs have to basically re-invent the wheel to work around the limitations of the cloud vendor the management has chosen (for example: no virtual machine autoscaling, in a cloud environment). Somebody at that company is certainly doing "creative work" and "solving problems" with code, but not those SREs.
arcturus17 5y ago
If software does not solve problems, what are you getting paid for, exactly? For the weight of the line of code?

francisofascii 5y ago

I think your are underestimating the time it takes to become proficient in a technology stack. You can't build anything until you learn it. When you are proficient, is nice to be able to come into a completely new business environment and be somewhat productive. It feels like validation that you are actually an expert in something. Now it is commendable and a great growth experience to come in as a newbie with no knowledge of the business and the technology, but still a hard pill to swallow for most.

taylodl 5y ago
> It feels like validation that you are actually an expert in something. You're an expert in knowing how to use a hammer. I think it's the wrong focus. Instead we should be focusing on whether you're a framer, a carpenter, a roofer, etc. It's your expertise in solving particular kinds of problems that makes you valuable, not in knowing how to use a particular tool. As an aside, some people have noted this is not true for IT contractors - as they are oftentimes brought in explicitly for their expertise in a tool. I would argue that's a reason why a lot of people don't want to be a contractor forever.

mettamage 5y ago

> Focusing on technology feels like putting the cart before the horse. Every language has its own ecosystem, its own frameworks, its own culture its own set of "best practices". Good luck learning them all.

FourHand451 5y ago
I don't think they're saying they can learn them all. Just the next one, if it can be applied to an interesting problem.
- taylodl 5y ago
  Correct. The languages I learn outside of my day job are languages that teach me new ways of thinking about problems: Lisp and Haskell are two that come to mind. Do I expect to get a job where these languages are used? No. I learned them because it gave me insights for becoming better at my craft. It makes me better at solving problems using the languages actually being used where I work.

sokoloff 5y ago

It’s almost like people choose companies based on different factors. Some are coin-operated. Some are language/stack-driven. Some want fast-growing; some want slow-and-steady. Others like small companies. Others like large stable companies.

anyfactor 5y ago

As a "Python Developer" this is for me. There are some demand for specific language based developer instead of purpose based developer. Case in point - Scala. There are Data Engineers and there are Scala Developers. There are some overlap but if you are an employer looking for Scala help, you need a Scala Developer and not someone who tolerates Scala in their stack. For me, Python always provides the shortest path to solving problems programmatically. It is the best thing you can use to prove a concept before you build something. Python sits appropriately in the middle of pseudo code and something performant. I get to solve unique problems rapidly. That fits my philosophy. If you are comfortable in using something why not get paid to do that. I am open to learning new things particularly Typescript but I am just comfortable in a Python environment more than a JavaScript or any other environment. The catch with all that is that I am more fitted for contract roles as opposed to full time jobs. For the employer hiring based on tech introduces too much rigidity. They want contractors and experts for that.

dagw 5y ago

As someone who is more of a domain expert who knows a fair bit of programming, rather than an expert programmer, I would certainly be reluctant of taking a job where I wasn't allowed to use the tools I prefer for solving problems within that domain.

dagw 5y ago

To me this feels like 'I love using this kind of hammer so let me find all the jobs where I can use this hammer I love to use.' Most craftsmen and artists I know are very particular about their tools and much prefer using their own tools that they've lovingly maintained and gotten to know all the quirks of rather than some random tool someone hands them.