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I would add that for many people that try to change the Government from within end up becoming what they start out fighting against just to be in the process.

yetihehe 5y ago
Exactly. That's how point 2 works (exchanging too slow).
- mantas 5y ago
  Even if you install 100% new government, it's likely that some of the new people will arrive to same old conclusions sooner or later. Corruption is just too natural consequence of someone managing resources without being directly affected by outcomes.
  - yetihehe 5y ago
    Yeah, that's why I wrote several points. They are ALL working at once which results in hard to beat corruption. Fixing just one point will not help.
    - recursivedoubts 5y ago
      They constantly try to escape From the darkness outside and within By dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good. But the man that is will shadow The man that pretends to be.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      Transparency, and hence able to checked by others, is the only solution I can see.
recursivedoubts 5y ago
Here is what happens: people with appetites (easily blackmail-able) are promoted from early on and given access to resources like campaign funds and seats at the table. Morally strong people are shunned and elbowed out, or seduced. Then it becomes a game of "Well, play ball and keep getting the gravy, or don't and we show and tell." This is why we have the Denny Hasterts of the world: empty-suit nobodies who come out of nowhere to become speaker of the house, then are disappeared in a puff of hushed-up scandal when they are no longer useful or can't keep a lid on their appetites. It's ridiculous that this isn't discussed in the education system. Even if it isn't intentional (it is) at some level stupidity becomes indistinguishable from malice.
- lukebuehler 5y ago
  I used to hear this but not believe that people would be groomed so brazenly. Then I saw it happen before my own eye in several global organizations (not government), now I believe, as you do, that this is one of the greatest sources of corruption: the corrupt work hard to raise people behind them who are just as corrupt, if not worse, because they can be controlled.
d_tr 5y ago
Or they end up quitting in disappointment and disgust or not bothering to begin with.
DennisP 5y ago
And those who don't usually get kicked out. I used to know a couple former state senators who played key roles in getting a prominent state senator of the opposite party convicted for corruption. They immediately lost support of their own party and were voted out. One of them was badly frightened in the process and dropped out of the public eye entirely. They had a lot to say about the workings of our legislature, including that the conflict between parties was largely a sham, and that if you wanted to stay in office, you participated in the quiet deals by which they all divided up the spoils.

yetihehe 5y ago

Exactly. That's how point 2 works (exchanging too slow).

mantas 5y ago
Even if you install 100% new government, it's likely that some of the new people will arrive to same old conclusions sooner or later. Corruption is just too natural consequence of someone managing resources without being directly affected by outcomes.
- yetihehe 5y ago
  Yeah, that's why I wrote several points. They are ALL working at once which results in hard to beat corruption. Fixing just one point will not help.
  - recursivedoubts 5y ago
    They constantly try to escape From the darkness outside and within By dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good. But the man that is will shadow The man that pretends to be.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    Transparency, and hence able to checked by others, is the only solution I can see.

recursivedoubts 5y ago

Here is what happens: people with appetites (easily blackmail-able) are promoted from early on and given access to resources like campaign funds and seats at the table. Morally strong people are shunned and elbowed out, or seduced. Then it becomes a game of "Well, play ball and keep getting the gravy, or don't and we show and tell." This is why we have the Denny Hasterts of the world: empty-suit nobodies who come out of nowhere to become speaker of the house, then are disappeared in a puff of hushed-up scandal when they are no longer useful or can't keep a lid on their appetites. It's ridiculous that this isn't discussed in the education system. Even if it isn't intentional (it is) at some level stupidity becomes indistinguishable from malice.

lukebuehler 5y ago
I used to hear this but not believe that people would be groomed so brazenly. Then I saw it happen before my own eye in several global organizations (not government), now I believe, as you do, that this is one of the greatest sources of corruption: the corrupt work hard to raise people behind them who are just as corrupt, if not worse, because they can be controlled.

d_tr 5y ago

Or they end up quitting in disappointment and disgust or not bothering to begin with.

DennisP 5y ago

And those who don't usually get kicked out. I used to know a couple former state senators who played key roles in getting a prominent state senator of the opposite party convicted for corruption. They immediately lost support of their own party and were voted out. One of them was badly frightened in the process and dropped out of the public eye entirely. They had a lot to say about the workings of our legislature, including that the conflict between parties was largely a sham, and that if you wanted to stay in office, you participated in the quiet deals by which they all divided up the spoils.