5 ms·

Here's a citation for a drug Shulgin is famous for: > MDMA provides an immediate enjoyable feeling by stimulating the release of neurotransmitters, such as dop

by patrec 5y ago

Here's a citation for a drug Shulgin is famous for: > MDMA provides an immediate enjoyable feeling by stimulating the release of neurotransmitters, such as dopamine and serotonin in the brain. Unfortunately, abnormal regulation of the brain neurotransmitters, as well as the increased oxidative stress causes damage to the brain neurons after the MDMA exposure. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7878040/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7878040/

netizen-936824 5y ago
All of those studies are either in rats or mice or are in vitro. A lot of the mice and rat studies can't be translated to humans because they have significantly different metabolisms and researchers use entirely different dosages than humans do in the wild >MDMA has been administered to approximately 1,700 human subjects with only one serious adverse reaction. https://maps.org/mdma/ https://maps.org/mdma/ There are currently human studies of MDMA. These would probably not be moving forward if they found "brain frying" although I appreciate your willingness to read abstracts
- eurasiantiger 5y ago
  Overdosing on MDMA can cause serotonin syndrome, which can cause neuronal death due to excitotoxicity.
  - netizen-936824 5y ago
    Overdose on many substances is bad and can damage neurons if it crosses the BBB. That's not saying anything special about entactogens/empathogens/psychedelics
    - eurasiantiger 5y ago
      I agree.
  - Terry_Roll 5y ago
    And thats the come down after popping a pill or two at some rave in the middle of field in Essex. Fortunately the body doesnt stop making new brain cells provided one's diet is adequate. I was surprised to learn the US Military resurrected MDMA in the 50's and then in the 70's Prof Alex Shulgin got hold of it. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3931692/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3931692/ Other country's handled it differently. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6435835/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6435835/ But it does lend credence to the conspiracy theory that the British security services started flooding the football terraces to reduce the football hooliganism that was blighting the British isles, as "documented" by later films like Football Factory starring Danny Dyer and many more. Still without it, would the world have what the US call EDM and what others call the Rave culture?
  - jaminal 5y ago
    This is very likely false; a myth perpetuated from the war on drugs combined with people taking unknown, untested substances in recreational settings. If they experienced serotonin syndrome it was quite easy to just point at the reported seratonergic substance that had been ingested (and which also may not have been present at all, depending on the source). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5931730/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5931730/
    - eurasiantiger 5y ago
      The worst cases are likely from interplay with other medications or simply overheating. However, the same is repeated in literature about plain methamphetamine, not just methylene-dioxy-methamphetamine, so I would not entirely trust the current state of science on this.
      - jaminal 5y ago
        It’s repeated for lots of medications where it could never happen. SS is widely misunderstood even in the medical community. I trust specific doctors who specialize in psychedelic medicine and psychiatry who have deep understanding of the metabolic pathways and pharmacokinetics of these substances. https://www.pharmacytimes.com/view/serotonin-syndrome-myths-and-misconceptions https://www.pharmacytimes.com/view/serotonin-syndrome-myths-... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8820588/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8820588/
- mythrwy 5y ago
  Just curious if you have been around people who take a lot of MDMA (I don't know what the "abuse" threshold is) or you have yourself. It does "something" to your cognitive abilities that is not beneficial. I don't know how permanent it is. Probably recoverable in most cases? Maybe not using 3 time a year (or whatever) but multiple times per week for months on end yes, it makes a person get "funny in the head". I've seen it with more then one person. I'm not anti drug nor denying therapeutic use (makes sense) but I'm fully convinced from observation MDMA is not risk free or harmless, especially when used to excess. Yes, anecdotal. But just a word of advice for whatever it's worth.
  - agency 5y ago
    I don't think even the most hardcore pro-drug advocates would claim that using MDMA multiple times per week is ever safe, but is there any evidence that that kind of abuse is remotely common? On average taking ecstasy is safer than riding a horse [1], and if you really just love to get fucked up and don't care about burning a hole in your brain, why not just graduate to straight-up meth? [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nutt#%22Equasy%22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nutt#%22Equasy%22
    - mythrwy 5y ago
      I don't know how common that kind of usage is. This was a group of people I hung with back in the 90's. The dangers of riding a horse are immediately apparent and it's easy to link cause and effect. Additionally the damage from a bad horse ride (unless you hit your head) are more likely to be physical trauma, a broken leg etc. The (possible) negative effects of a drug on cognition are more subtle and harder to attribute. Again, I'm not anti drug at all (especially legally speaking). It's just, what I saw and I feel I should relate it as a bit of a cautionary tale. I am convinced overuse of MDMA has a negative effects on the kind of cognition that allows a person to plan, link cause and effect, think abstractly and that kind of thing. It's not a scientific study, just what I believe from observation.
  - svnt 5y ago
    Here is how I think about it: your cognitive processes are accustomed to certain biochemical biases. You’ve grown and developed your brain in response to stimuli under a certain set of conditions. One set might be jacked adrenals due to your propensity for epic soundtracks and caffeine or chocolate consumption. Another set might be alcohol and social feedback. If you spend a lot of time in these states, your unbiased function diminishes because you are optimizing for a different chemical bias. If you are not so far gone, or are exceptionally motivated or introspective, you can integrate those experiences, and it might expand your awareness. If you can’t, or don’t, it might increase your function while using but reduce your sober function. This effect will increase as you spend more and more time ‘high’: you are transitioning function within your own constrained cognitive capacity to a different bias.

by patrec 5y ago

netizen-936824 5y ago

All of those studies are either in rats or mice or are in vitro. A lot of the mice and rat studies can't be translated to humans because they have significantly different metabolisms and researchers use entirely different dosages than humans do in the wild >MDMA has been administered to approximately 1,700 human subjects with only one serious adverse reaction. https://maps.org/mdma/ https://maps.org/mdma/ There are currently human studies of MDMA. These would probably not be moving forward if they found "brain frying" although I appreciate your willingness to read abstracts

eurasiantiger 5y ago
Overdosing on MDMA can cause serotonin syndrome, which can cause neuronal death due to excitotoxicity.
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  Overdose on many substances is bad and can damage neurons if it crosses the BBB. That's not saying anything special about entactogens/empathogens/psychedelics
  - eurasiantiger 5y ago
    I agree.
- Terry_Roll 5y ago
  And thats the come down after popping a pill or two at some rave in the middle of field in Essex. Fortunately the body doesnt stop making new brain cells provided one's diet is adequate. I was surprised to learn the US Military resurrected MDMA in the 50's and then in the 70's Prof Alex Shulgin got hold of it. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3931692/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3931692/ Other country's handled it differently. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6435835/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6435835/ But it does lend credence to the conspiracy theory that the British security services started flooding the football terraces to reduce the football hooliganism that was blighting the British isles, as "documented" by later films like Football Factory starring Danny Dyer and many more. Still without it, would the world have what the US call EDM and what others call the Rave culture?
- jaminal 5y ago
  This is very likely false; a myth perpetuated from the war on drugs combined with people taking unknown, untested substances in recreational settings. If they experienced serotonin syndrome it was quite easy to just point at the reported seratonergic substance that had been ingested (and which also may not have been present at all, depending on the source). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5931730/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5931730/
  - eurasiantiger 5y ago
    The worst cases are likely from interplay with other medications or simply overheating. However, the same is repeated in literature about plain methamphetamine, not just methylene-dioxy-methamphetamine, so I would not entirely trust the current state of science on this.
    - jaminal 5y ago
      It’s repeated for lots of medications where it could never happen. SS is widely misunderstood even in the medical community. I trust specific doctors who specialize in psychedelic medicine and psychiatry who have deep understanding of the metabolic pathways and pharmacokinetics of these substances. https://www.pharmacytimes.com/view/serotonin-syndrome-myths-and-misconceptions https://www.pharmacytimes.com/view/serotonin-syndrome-myths-... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8820588/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8820588/
mythrwy 5y ago
Just curious if you have been around people who take a lot of MDMA (I don't know what the "abuse" threshold is) or you have yourself. It does "something" to your cognitive abilities that is not beneficial. I don't know how permanent it is. Probably recoverable in most cases? Maybe not using 3 time a year (or whatever) but multiple times per week for months on end yes, it makes a person get "funny in the head". I've seen it with more then one person. I'm not anti drug nor denying therapeutic use (makes sense) but I'm fully convinced from observation MDMA is not risk free or harmless, especially when used to excess. Yes, anecdotal. But just a word of advice for whatever it's worth.
- agency 5y ago
  I don't think even the most hardcore pro-drug advocates would claim that using MDMA multiple times per week is ever safe, but is there any evidence that that kind of abuse is remotely common? On average taking ecstasy is safer than riding a horse [1], and if you really just love to get fucked up and don't care about burning a hole in your brain, why not just graduate to straight-up meth? [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nutt#%22Equasy%22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nutt#%22Equasy%22
  - mythrwy 5y ago
    I don't know how common that kind of usage is. This was a group of people I hung with back in the 90's. The dangers of riding a horse are immediately apparent and it's easy to link cause and effect. Additionally the damage from a bad horse ride (unless you hit your head) are more likely to be physical trauma, a broken leg etc. The (possible) negative effects of a drug on cognition are more subtle and harder to attribute. Again, I'm not anti drug at all (especially legally speaking). It's just, what I saw and I feel I should relate it as a bit of a cautionary tale. I am convinced overuse of MDMA has a negative effects on the kind of cognition that allows a person to plan, link cause and effect, think abstractly and that kind of thing. It's not a scientific study, just what I believe from observation.
- svnt 5y ago
  Here is how I think about it: your cognitive processes are accustomed to certain biochemical biases. You’ve grown and developed your brain in response to stimuli under a certain set of conditions. One set might be jacked adrenals due to your propensity for epic soundtracks and caffeine or chocolate consumption. Another set might be alcohol and social feedback. If you spend a lot of time in these states, your unbiased function diminishes because you are optimizing for a different chemical bias. If you are not so far gone, or are exceptionally motivated or introspective, you can integrate those experiences, and it might expand your awareness. If you can’t, or don’t, it might increase your function while using but reduce your sober function. This effect will increase as you spend more and more time ‘high’: you are transitioning function within your own constrained cognitive capacity to a different bias.