4 ms·

Do you have any evidence this is what’s happening? Why should I trust your declarations?

sneak 5y ago
https://web.archive.org/web/20210903214920/https://www.apple.com/child-safety/ https://web.archive.org/web/20210903214920/https://www.apple... (linked from the above-linked wikipedia article as citation for the clientside scanning feature documentation on wikipedia) https://web.archive.org/web/20210903214920/https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Technical_Summary.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20210903214920/https://www.apple... Apple said they were doing it. Apple never subsequently said they were not doing it. (They did say some things that implied that they MIGHT not do it, designed to make you stop being mad at them ("Based on feedback from customers, advocacy groups, researchers, and others, we have decided to take additional time over the coming months to collect input and make improvements before releasing these critically important child safety features.").) They did, however, reiterate that this was going to be released. What more evidence do you want than the vendor's direct affirmative statements? When people plainly tell you who they are: believe them.
- greggsy 5y ago
  This has been discussed ad nauseum. The client side code isn’t looking at your files, it’s looking for a signature. If you don’t have the signature, it won’t do anything. I’m a privacy advocate, and this approach actually increased my trust as it was a more palatable option than allowing unfettered server side access in response to LEO requests (which happens in extreme cases, but not on a routine basis.)
  - sneak 5y ago
    Signature scanning of my private files without consent, as well as any potential subsequent reporting to law enforcement, are both human rights violations, if you believe what Apple claims to: that "privacy is a human right". Privacy includes privacy to break the law until and unless specific probable cause is established in a court. Companies have no moral or legal obligation to get involved in mass scanning to enable proactive law enforcement. "But the children!" does not make this not a privacy violation. Signatures don't make this not a privacy violation. The system is also ripe for abuse. What happens when the legislature mandates a regulatory body be able to set policy to amend the signature list? You do not want to live in the world this creates. This is not about child safety. Think more along the lines of Tiananmen Tank Man.
    - lupire 5y ago
      It was never set to do anything without consent for private files, only for files you give to iCloud for storage.
      - sneak 5y ago
        Apple already scans all photos uploaded to iCloud, as they are not end to end encrypted and are viewable by Apple. This has been going on for ages and is not what is being discussed. The topic is local scanning on an end user device without the consent of the device owner. Clientside scanning of files given over to the cloud is nonsensical. Apple already scans serverside.
- jtbayly 5y ago
  So far you haven't given any evidence of what you claim, which is that this app is Apple implementing their client-side CSAM detection scheme and silently and secretly including it in Mac OS. No evidence at all. So I reiterate: Why should I believe you?
  - mixmastamyk 5y ago
    You just moved the goalposts. Please don’t reiterate obtuse questions when reasonable answers were delivered on a silver platter.
    - jtbayly 5y ago
      The original implication and still the claim is that this app is for the purposes he describes. "This may well be that implementation." There is no evidence of such. I'm not moving the goal posts. I'm asking him if he has any evidence that this app is for CSAM detection. So far, I've yet to see any.

https://web.archive.org/web/20210903214920/https://www.apple.com/child-safety/ https://web.archive.org/web/20210903214920/https://www.apple... (linked from the above-linked wikipedia article as citation for the clientside scanning feature documentation on wikipedia) https://web.archive.org/web/20210903214920/https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Technical_Summary.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20210903214920/https://www.apple... Apple said they were doing it. Apple never subsequently said they were not doing it. (They did say some things that implied that they MIGHT not do it, designed to make you stop being mad at them ("Based on feedback from customers, advocacy groups, researchers, and others, we have decided to take additional time over the coming months to collect input and make improvements before releasing these critically important child safety features.").) They did, however, reiterate that this was going to be released. What more evidence do you want than the vendor's direct affirmative statements? When people plainly tell you who they are: believe them.

greggsy 5y ago
This has been discussed ad nauseum. The client side code isn’t looking at your files, it’s looking for a signature. If you don’t have the signature, it won’t do anything. I’m a privacy advocate, and this approach actually increased my trust as it was a more palatable option than allowing unfettered server side access in response to LEO requests (which happens in extreme cases, but not on a routine basis.)
- sneak 5y ago
  Signature scanning of my private files without consent, as well as any potential subsequent reporting to law enforcement, are both human rights violations, if you believe what Apple claims to: that "privacy is a human right". Privacy includes privacy to break the law until and unless specific probable cause is established in a court. Companies have no moral or legal obligation to get involved in mass scanning to enable proactive law enforcement. "But the children!" does not make this not a privacy violation. Signatures don't make this not a privacy violation. The system is also ripe for abuse. What happens when the legislature mandates a regulatory body be able to set policy to amend the signature list? You do not want to live in the world this creates. This is not about child safety. Think more along the lines of Tiananmen Tank Man.
  - lupire 5y ago
    It was never set to do anything without consent for private files, only for files you give to iCloud for storage.
    - sneak 5y ago
      Apple already scans all photos uploaded to iCloud, as they are not end to end encrypted and are viewable by Apple. This has been going on for ages and is not what is being discussed. The topic is local scanning on an end user device without the consent of the device owner. Clientside scanning of files given over to the cloud is nonsensical. Apple already scans serverside.
jtbayly 5y ago
So far you haven't given any evidence of what you claim, which is that this app is Apple implementing their client-side CSAM detection scheme and silently and secretly including it in Mac OS. No evidence at all. So I reiterate: Why should I believe you?
- mixmastamyk 5y ago
  You just moved the goalposts. Please don’t reiterate obtuse questions when reasonable answers were delivered on a silver platter.
  - jtbayly 5y ago
    The original implication and still the claim is that this app is for the purposes he describes. "This may well be that implementation." There is no evidence of such. I'm not moving the goal posts. I'm asking him if he has any evidence that this app is for CSAM detection. So far, I've yet to see any.