5 ms·

No, I don't remember a time when users were in control and actually owned Apple-made hard- and software. However, linux is alive and well, despite some flavour

No, I don't remember a time when users were in control and actually owned Apple-made hard- and software. However, linux is alive and well, despite some flavours attempting to force autoupdating snap stores and the like onto users.

okamiueru 5y ago
Purging snap has so far been a 5 minute do-and-forget operation, all the way to 21.10.
- jeroenhd 5y ago
  Sadly, Ubuntu is moving Firefox to snap in the upcoming 22.04 release. I think I'll be switching to either Manjaro or plain Arch before 21.10 becomes unsupported.
  - kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
    You can just manually install the official Firefox linux release. I've always done this since the Debian Iceweasel days and it works without issue.
    - vetinari 5y ago
      The distro-provided versions can be slightly different than the Mozilla build. For example, Fedora build is ruled by these principles: https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1518 https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1518, while the Mozilla build is not.
      - account42 5y ago
        Agreed, Mozilla has not exactly shown that they will put user interests first and it makes sense to have a third-party packager to double check their choices.
    - Brian_K_White 5y ago
      If you have to fight against your distro, you have a bigger problem than one package, and working around that one package doesn't fix the larger proble which is that they tried, and will try again, and will always be trying. You need your tools goals to be aligned with your own, and reject any that aren't, not cater to them. Working around the FF package by installing from elsewhere is no answer.
      - LooseMarmoset 5y ago
        The distros don't update Firefox as often as Firefox does. If you want leading-edge on Linux, it's best to install to a directory you have write access to with the official Linux Firefox installer, and let the browser update itself. Just my experience.
  - mkmk3 5y ago
    What does it mean functionally to move it to snap exclusively? Removing it and maybe some of its dependencies from ubuntus default apt repositories? Would there be issues building it and providing it in a custom ppa?
  - morganvachon 5y ago
    Unless you rely on systemd, try Void Linux. It has a sane package manager and a very active, friendly community. It requires a little legwork to get to the same polish as Ubuntu and other consumer-oriented distros, but it is rock solid and reliable. Otherwise be careful with Manjaro; it is a noble project with great goals and some great implementations (and a stellar community!), but they tend to go a bit overboard on customization for customization's sake which has introduced breakage in the past. Nothing that isn't fixed within a day in my experience, but stable it most certainly is not. There's also Mint for a more traditional and conservative take on Ubuntu's method, as well as MX Linux which shows off how good Debian can be in the right hands. Or go crazy like me and start using OpenBSD as your main workstation provided your workflow can adapt to it; I'm on 7.0 on this machine with Firefox 95 and literally everything I need is here.
  - LooseMarmoset 5y ago
    I'd like to throw my two cents in on Devuan. This is a fork of Debian that simply doesn't include systemd, but does include all the other work that Debian has done, and tracks all the Debian releases. This is my daily driver for both home and work. I've completely ditched Windows and other versions of Linux. Steam runs fine, and with Proton, I have compatibility good enough not to miss Windows at all. Some games (Dark Messiah is one) that won't even run in Windows anymore run great in Proton. The company I work for does a lot of container-based work, and aside from a couple tweaks to apt sources that naively assume release names, everything "just works".
  - okamiueru 5y ago
    I recently upgraded to 21.10, where in the process, snap was reinstalled and firefox was reinstalled as a snap. I did however just purge snap as I've done many times before, without any issue. Then installed firefox through flatpak, which is as of writing version 98.0.2, which looks to be the same as you get through snap. So, in conclusion, it shouldn't matter one bit how canonical decides to distribute firefox, if you can just use the debian based apt, or flatpak. I hope canonical goes away from the snap model, because I've had nothing but issues with it, until I got fed up enough to remove it, and then everything was great again. Issues were mostly related to read-only mounted file system, and otherwise the mess it produces. However, even if I had experienced none of those, the whole automatic updates whether-you-like-it-or-not... is one of the reasons why I'm not using windows or macOS.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
csmattryder 5y ago
Linux can be chatty, but I'd recommend installing OpenSnitch to get a handle on the few phone-home calls from programs like snapd (if you choose to not neuter it, immediately) and distro-specific upsells like "ubuntu-advantage". The biggest pay-off for OpenSnitch is if you're going to be installing and using third-party programs like VSCode and Unity, who love to talk to analytics providers.
- zibzab 5y ago
  vscode lets you turn off analytics in the settings (IMO it should be off by default, untill a crash is detected). Isn't that enough?
  - Brian_K_White 5y ago
    Of course not?
    - can16358p 5y ago
      Why? (Assumimg Vscode respects the setting)
      - denysvitali 5y ago
        Because then VSCodium wouldn't exist
      - Brian_K_White 5y ago
        I don't even understand the question. If you found that your next door neighbor was sneaking into your house while you're away, and he said "oh I have an option not to do that. Just ask me not to any more." Would that be good enough? You say "ok I would like to invoke that option" and that's it, you happily go away on a month long vacation without installing any cameras or anything because they guy said he won't do that now. That's a single package, whose setting affects no other apps, and you have to trust that the app even really does what it says, which makes no sense when the topic is apps that may be doing unwanted things behind your back.
Ensorceled 5y ago
> Apple-made hard- and software. Not sure why are a singling out Apple here. Windows is worse as are many (most?) hardware vendors; there is a reason everyone REALLY should fresh install vanilla Windows over the vendors OEM version.

okamiueru 5y ago

Purging snap has so far been a 5 minute do-and-forget operation, all the way to 21.10.

jeroenhd 5y ago
Sadly, Ubuntu is moving Firefox to snap in the upcoming 22.04 release. I think I'll be switching to either Manjaro or plain Arch before 21.10 becomes unsupported.
- kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
  You can just manually install the official Firefox linux release. I've always done this since the Debian Iceweasel days and it works without issue.
  - vetinari 5y ago
    The distro-provided versions can be slightly different than the Mozilla build. For example, Fedora build is ruled by these principles: https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1518 https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1518, while the Mozilla build is not.
    - account42 5y ago
      Agreed, Mozilla has not exactly shown that they will put user interests first and it makes sense to have a third-party packager to double check their choices.
  - Brian_K_White 5y ago
    If you have to fight against your distro, you have a bigger problem than one package, and working around that one package doesn't fix the larger proble which is that they tried, and will try again, and will always be trying. You need your tools goals to be aligned with your own, and reject any that aren't, not cater to them. Working around the FF package by installing from elsewhere is no answer.
    - LooseMarmoset 5y ago
      The distros don't update Firefox as often as Firefox does. If you want leading-edge on Linux, it's best to install to a directory you have write access to with the official Linux Firefox installer, and let the browser update itself. Just my experience.
- mkmk3 5y ago
  What does it mean functionally to move it to snap exclusively? Removing it and maybe some of its dependencies from ubuntus default apt repositories? Would there be issues building it and providing it in a custom ppa?
- morganvachon 5y ago
  Unless you rely on systemd, try Void Linux. It has a sane package manager and a very active, friendly community. It requires a little legwork to get to the same polish as Ubuntu and other consumer-oriented distros, but it is rock solid and reliable. Otherwise be careful with Manjaro; it is a noble project with great goals and some great implementations (and a stellar community!), but they tend to go a bit overboard on customization for customization's sake which has introduced breakage in the past. Nothing that isn't fixed within a day in my experience, but stable it most certainly is not. There's also Mint for a more traditional and conservative take on Ubuntu's method, as well as MX Linux which shows off how good Debian can be in the right hands. Or go crazy like me and start using OpenBSD as your main workstation provided your workflow can adapt to it; I'm on 7.0 on this machine with Firefox 95 and literally everything I need is here.
- LooseMarmoset 5y ago
  I'd like to throw my two cents in on Devuan. This is a fork of Debian that simply doesn't include systemd, but does include all the other work that Debian has done, and tracks all the Debian releases. This is my daily driver for both home and work. I've completely ditched Windows and other versions of Linux. Steam runs fine, and with Proton, I have compatibility good enough not to miss Windows at all. Some games (Dark Messiah is one) that won't even run in Windows anymore run great in Proton. The company I work for does a lot of container-based work, and aside from a couple tweaks to apt sources that naively assume release names, everything "just works".
- okamiueru 5y ago
  I recently upgraded to 21.10, where in the process, snap was reinstalled and firefox was reinstalled as a snap. I did however just purge snap as I've done many times before, without any issue. Then installed firefox through flatpak, which is as of writing version 98.0.2, which looks to be the same as you get through snap. So, in conclusion, it shouldn't matter one bit how canonical decides to distribute firefox, if you can just use the debian based apt, or flatpak. I hope canonical goes away from the snap model, because I've had nothing but issues with it, until I got fed up enough to remove it, and then everything was great again. Issues were mostly related to read-only mounted file system, and otherwise the mess it produces. However, even if I had experienced none of those, the whole automatic updates whether-you-like-it-or-not... is one of the reasons why I'm not using windows or macOS.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

csmattryder 5y ago

Linux can be chatty, but I'd recommend installing OpenSnitch to get a handle on the few phone-home calls from programs like snapd (if you choose to not neuter it, immediately) and distro-specific upsells like "ubuntu-advantage". The biggest pay-off for OpenSnitch is if you're going to be installing and using third-party programs like VSCode and Unity, who love to talk to analytics providers.

zibzab 5y ago
vscode lets you turn off analytics in the settings (IMO it should be off by default, untill a crash is detected). Isn't that enough?
- Brian_K_White 5y ago
  Of course not?
  - can16358p 5y ago
    Why? (Assumimg Vscode respects the setting)
    - denysvitali 5y ago
      Because then VSCodium wouldn't exist
    - Brian_K_White 5y ago
      I don't even understand the question. If you found that your next door neighbor was sneaking into your house while you're away, and he said "oh I have an option not to do that. Just ask me not to any more." Would that be good enough? You say "ok I would like to invoke that option" and that's it, you happily go away on a month long vacation without installing any cameras or anything because they guy said he won't do that now. That's a single package, whose setting affects no other apps, and you have to trust that the app even really does what it says, which makes no sense when the topic is apps that may be doing unwanted things behind your back.

Ensorceled 5y ago

> Apple-made hard- and software. Not sure why are a singling out Apple here. Windows is worse as are many (most?) hardware vendors; there is a reason everyone REALLY should fresh install vanilla Windows over the vendors OEM version.