21 ms·

Nope, instead you have to apply guesswork to figure out why an apt-get call accidentally uninstalled your desktop environment. :P

oynqr 5y ago
Pretty sure there was no guesswork involved in finding out why that happened, since it was resolved so quickly.
caslon 5y ago
"One distribution using one package manager is bad when piloted by an incompetent YouTuber who ignores multiple warnings. Therefore, all of free software is bad."
- AussieWog93 5y ago
  It's more than just Linus's experience with Pop OS. So many (consumer-focused) FOSS products have huge, obtuse quirks in them that prevent their widespread adoption, and uber-tech-literate people tend to overlook this because they really want to believe that FOSS can succeed. In reality, a lot of these quirks come about because of the non-commercial nature of the projects[1]. When a business produces software, the aim is to get as many people as possible to use it. This means a smooth (enough) user experience or death. For software written by volunteers, the aim is to (generally) satisfy the intellectual curiosity of the people writing it. This means huge issues for users, and QA in basically all forms, are overlooked in favour of working on cool/interesting things for developers. [1] Yes, I know commercial FOSS exists. I run a reasonably large commercial FOSS project myself. However, the overwhelming majority of FOSS projects out there are volunteer-led and run.
  - bee_rider 5y ago
    Who said free software was easy to use? It just reduces guesswork. It is often the case that precise tools both enable and require a little more understanding on the part of the users.
  - bigDinosaur 5y ago
    While there's some truth here, you're underestimating the amount of great open source software that's easy to use. You just don't think of it, and it's likely heavily used by commercial companies. Also, terrible obtuse quirks are certainly not unique to FOSS products. Go ask someone who deals with, I don't know, the software used to run hospitals and healthcare systems (electronic health records, or EHR's) as but one example.
  - npteljes 5y ago
    No. Widespread adoption is hindered of the status quo that Linux is not the default OS on the PC platform. If governments used Linux internally, mandated that schools teach Linux and Libreoffice, and the Windows bundling thing hadn't happen, and especially if all this happened 15 years ago, the landscape would be vastly different. Linux wouldn't have fewer quirks, maybe it would have more, but nevertheless people would use it because that would make the most sense to them. This is the only thing that matters, not user experience, not the goal of the software, but things that are orthogonal to the software: its integration into society.
- charcircuit 5y ago
  apt deciding it should yeet essential packages is not a new thing and has happened many times to many people.
  - caslon 5y ago
    Apt is a terrible, single package manager.
  - caoilte 5y ago
    been using debian derived OSes 22 years and never had any problems. Dual boot Windows has permanently BSODed multiple times and required a reinstall. You can do stupid things in Linux, but if you stay on the rails (I only upgraded to Ubuntu 20.04 last week) you're fine. Windows will just mess your system up every so often without you even doing anything except installing the updates it tells you to.
SanderSantema 5y ago
Although you could make this argument in this context I don’t think it is valid. I’m quite certain that someone who’s trying to figure out what some obscure service is doing on their machine would be able to use `apt-get` perfectly fine and wouldn’t ignore any all-caps warnings.
npteljes 5y ago
I'll take that every day. Because it's not like proprietary doesn't fuck itself up. For an anecdote, I had a laptop with Win8 preinstalled, and Update just wasn't working one day. The solution? Scouring the internet to find a Microsoft executable that fixed update. How? We'll never know. Because we're not meant to.
- dylan604 5y ago
  Or the MS update that nuked people's Documents folder?
- jthrowsitaway 5y ago
  Ah yes, gotta love the mystery .exe "fixers" that are sometimes associated with KB articles.
StreamBright 5y ago
Or how Exim ended up on my system when I wanted to install a command line tool that does not require email sending (even if it required why on earth would anybody build such package dependencies).
kop316 5y ago
I'm confused. `apt-get upgrade` doesn't remove packages. `apt-get dist-upgrade` tells you what packages it will remove and has you confirm that you want those packages removed before you proceed. https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/apt-guide/ch2.en.html https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/apt-guide/ch2.en.html What guesswork is needed?
- AussieWog93 5y ago
  It was a reference to an infamous incident where Linus Sebastian accidentally removed his DE when trying to install Steam via APT.
_Algernon_ 5y ago
You only have to guess if you ignore the obvious warning and type "Yes, do as I say" indiscriminately. I think that's fair.
prmoustache 5y ago
Unless you blindly launch all apt-get call with the -y command it will ask you for confirmation before uninstalling anything. If you say yes, it is not an accident but 1. your own decision 2. it is easily reversible.
smoldesu 5y ago
Sure thing, Linus...

oynqr 5y ago

Pretty sure there was no guesswork involved in finding out why that happened, since it was resolved so quickly.

caslon 5y ago

"One distribution using one package manager is bad when piloted by an incompetent YouTuber who ignores multiple warnings. Therefore, all of free software is bad."

AussieWog93 5y ago
It's more than just Linus's experience with Pop OS. So many (consumer-focused) FOSS products have huge, obtuse quirks in them that prevent their widespread adoption, and uber-tech-literate people tend to overlook this because they really want to believe that FOSS can succeed. In reality, a lot of these quirks come about because of the non-commercial nature of the projects[1]. When a business produces software, the aim is to get as many people as possible to use it. This means a smooth (enough) user experience or death. For software written by volunteers, the aim is to (generally) satisfy the intellectual curiosity of the people writing it. This means huge issues for users, and QA in basically all forms, are overlooked in favour of working on cool/interesting things for developers. [1] Yes, I know commercial FOSS exists. I run a reasonably large commercial FOSS project myself. However, the overwhelming majority of FOSS projects out there are volunteer-led and run.
- bee_rider 5y ago
  Who said free software was easy to use? It just reduces guesswork. It is often the case that precise tools both enable and require a little more understanding on the part of the users.
- bigDinosaur 5y ago
  While there's some truth here, you're underestimating the amount of great open source software that's easy to use. You just don't think of it, and it's likely heavily used by commercial companies. Also, terrible obtuse quirks are certainly not unique to FOSS products. Go ask someone who deals with, I don't know, the software used to run hospitals and healthcare systems (electronic health records, or EHR's) as but one example.
- npteljes 5y ago
  No. Widespread adoption is hindered of the status quo that Linux is not the default OS on the PC platform. If governments used Linux internally, mandated that schools teach Linux and Libreoffice, and the Windows bundling thing hadn't happen, and especially if all this happened 15 years ago, the landscape would be vastly different. Linux wouldn't have fewer quirks, maybe it would have more, but nevertheless people would use it because that would make the most sense to them. This is the only thing that matters, not user experience, not the goal of the software, but things that are orthogonal to the software: its integration into society.
charcircuit 5y ago
apt deciding it should yeet essential packages is not a new thing and has happened many times to many people.
- caslon 5y ago
  Apt is a terrible, single package manager.
- caoilte 5y ago
  been using debian derived OSes 22 years and never had any problems. Dual boot Windows has permanently BSODed multiple times and required a reinstall. You can do stupid things in Linux, but if you stay on the rails (I only upgraded to Ubuntu 20.04 last week) you're fine. Windows will just mess your system up every so often without you even doing anything except installing the updates it tells you to.

SanderSantema 5y ago

Although you could make this argument in this context I don’t think it is valid. I’m quite certain that someone who’s trying to figure out what some obscure service is doing on their machine would be able to use `apt-get` perfectly fine and wouldn’t ignore any all-caps warnings.

npteljes 5y ago

I'll take that every day. Because it's not like proprietary doesn't fuck itself up. For an anecdote, I had a laptop with Win8 preinstalled, and Update just wasn't working one day. The solution? Scouring the internet to find a Microsoft executable that fixed update. How? We'll never know. Because we're not meant to.

dylan604 5y ago
Or the MS update that nuked people's Documents folder?
jthrowsitaway 5y ago
Ah yes, gotta love the mystery .exe "fixers" that are sometimes associated with KB articles.

StreamBright 5y ago

Or how Exim ended up on my system when I wanted to install a command line tool that does not require email sending (even if it required why on earth would anybody build such package dependencies).

kop316 5y ago

I'm confused. `apt-get upgrade` doesn't remove packages. `apt-get dist-upgrade` tells you what packages it will remove and has you confirm that you want those packages removed before you proceed. https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/apt-guide/ch2.en.html https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/apt-guide/ch2.en.html What guesswork is needed?

AussieWog93 5y ago
It was a reference to an infamous incident where Linus Sebastian accidentally removed his DE when trying to install Steam via APT.

_Algernon_ 5y ago

You only have to guess if you ignore the obvious warning and type "Yes, do as I say" indiscriminately. I think that's fair.

prmoustache 5y ago

Unless you blindly launch all apt-get call with the -y command it will ask you for confirmation before uninstalling anything. If you say yes, it is not an accident but 1. your own decision 2. it is easily reversible.

smoldesu 5y ago

Sure thing, Linus...