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> What can your team do to reverse this tragedy of the commons? It's tragedies all the way down :-) Making a successful tool in a competitive space is hard en

> What can your team do to reverse this tragedy of the commons? It's tragedies all the way down :-) Making a successful tool in a competitive space is hard enough. Asking a creator to somehow factor in environmental impact isn't going to work. A creator that places additional constraints on themselves will more likely lose out to a competitor that doesn't. This is the kind of thing a carbon tax is perfect for. Cost optimization is infused into how businesses and individuals operate. Tax the things you care about and watch all that machinery get to work! Right now, people use Docker (and dynamic languages, bloated JS libraries, etc) because burning electricity is the cheapest route. (Sort of... the market's obviously not perfect.) Make electricity expensive enough and we'll get more efficient systems. And of course taxes aren't the only solution. For example, Google Flights now shows the carbon cost of each flight option, which I think might actually move the needle. But that category of solution might only work in an industry with similar characteristics, e.g. infrequent but large purchases, mature industry that can define measurement standards.

ubercore 5y ago
> Asking a creator to somehow factor in environmental impact isn't going to work. That attitude doesn't leave a great impression for me. I take your points about how difficult it is, but I think we can all do better than throw our hands up in the air. For instance, you could talk about how easy containerization of CI/CD makes it easier to move your pipeline where impact is lowest. Or that you can control your own impact rather than leave it up to the whim of someone like CircleCI. There's no silver bullet with environmental impact, which is why we all have to collectively apply whatever wins we can, wherever we can.
- xeromal 5y ago
  I haven't fully formed this thought yet, but your request might result in a net loss of "good" people. The people who actually consider your request will probably fail to launch their business due to those environmental constraints. If you take 10 people who run a business regular and compare them to 10 who do it in an environmentally conscience way (while environmentalism not being he the bizmodel in the first place), I'd think you'd have equal or less environmental businesses succeeded which actually ends up hurting your problem more than helping. I think the ideal way is to let a startup thrive any way possible and when they're not trying to not starve anymore, begin environmental changes.
- cakoose 5y ago
  > For instance, you could talk about how easy containerization of CI/CD makes it easier to move your pipeline where impact is lowest. Or that you can control your own impact rather than leave it up to the whim of someone like CircleCI. Oh yeah -- I'm not at all saying Docker is all bad. * Like you mentioned, increasing interoperability allows the market be more efficient. * Docker continued the path that VMs started towards making strong isolation even more efficient and accessible. * Layers and caching are obviously good for resource consumption. It's just that the original comment seemed to try shaming the Docker creators about what they've built. All they did was try and make something better. And if they didn't, someone else would have.
  - drewm1980 5y ago
    It was meant as genuine constructive criticism and a plea to do better. They have more traction than most people to morph docker into something that comes close to its predecessors in efficiency. Somehow replace their fragile layer caching strategy based around diffs of the entire filesystem, with something that understands the OS and language-specific packaging systems being used inside the containers, and can therefore at ~least cache the package downloads. We desperately need a better, more efficient package manager, and Docker has been a huge setback; it has become normal for CICD to rebuild your image every time you touch the code, and pull down practically an entire linux distribution every time. I know you can do better with docker caching if you put in enough consistent and dedicated engineering effort into how you structure things, and set up local apt and pypi mirrors, etc... but that's the default behavior, and none of (admittedly very small number organizations) I've worked at have had the organizational capacity to really get past it. I don't know if we need what they're building, but we absolutely need a much more efficient new version of Docker with an easy migration path. Indeed they may be the ~only people with traction to resolve this, since in the current climate as soon as someone introduces a new package manager with more efficient dependency resolution or caching (i.e. nix, poetry, cargo...), people just stick it in their Docker container and break the caching anyway.

ubercore 5y ago

> Asking a creator to somehow factor in environmental impact isn't going to work. That attitude doesn't leave a great impression for me. I take your points about how difficult it is, but I think we can all do better than throw our hands up in the air. For instance, you could talk about how easy containerization of CI/CD makes it easier to move your pipeline where impact is lowest. Or that you can control your own impact rather than leave it up to the whim of someone like CircleCI. There's no silver bullet with environmental impact, which is why we all have to collectively apply whatever wins we can, wherever we can.

xeromal 5y ago
I haven't fully formed this thought yet, but your request might result in a net loss of "good" people. The people who actually consider your request will probably fail to launch their business due to those environmental constraints. If you take 10 people who run a business regular and compare them to 10 who do it in an environmentally conscience way (while environmentalism not being he the bizmodel in the first place), I'd think you'd have equal or less environmental businesses succeeded which actually ends up hurting your problem more than helping. I think the ideal way is to let a startup thrive any way possible and when they're not trying to not starve anymore, begin environmental changes.
cakoose 5y ago
> For instance, you could talk about how easy containerization of CI/CD makes it easier to move your pipeline where impact is lowest. Or that you can control your own impact rather than leave it up to the whim of someone like CircleCI. Oh yeah -- I'm not at all saying Docker is all bad. * Like you mentioned, increasing interoperability allows the market be more efficient. * Docker continued the path that VMs started towards making strong isolation even more efficient and accessible. * Layers and caching are obviously good for resource consumption. It's just that the original comment seemed to try shaming the Docker creators about what they've built. All they did was try and make something better. And if they didn't, someone else would have.
- drewm1980 5y ago
  It was meant as genuine constructive criticism and a plea to do better. They have more traction than most people to morph docker into something that comes close to its predecessors in efficiency. Somehow replace their fragile layer caching strategy based around diffs of the entire filesystem, with something that understands the OS and language-specific packaging systems being used inside the containers, and can therefore at ~least cache the package downloads. We desperately need a better, more efficient package manager, and Docker has been a huge setback; it has become normal for CICD to rebuild your image every time you touch the code, and pull down practically an entire linux distribution every time. I know you can do better with docker caching if you put in enough consistent and dedicated engineering effort into how you structure things, and set up local apt and pypi mirrors, etc... but that's the default behavior, and none of (admittedly very small number organizations) I've worked at have had the organizational capacity to really get past it. I don't know if we need what they're building, but we absolutely need a much more efficient new version of Docker with an easy migration path. Indeed they may be the ~only people with traction to resolve this, since in the current climate as soon as someone introduces a new package manager with more efficient dependency resolution or caching (i.e. nix, poetry, cargo...), people just stick it in their Docker container and break the caching anyway.