15 ms·

Phenethylamines I Have Known and Loved (1991)

202 points by graderjs 5y ago

greenyoda 5y ago
The co-author, Alexander Shulgin, had an interesting career: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Shulgin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Shulgin
graderjs 5y ago
I just love the way Ann and he write up the bioassays. Take a look, for instance, at this one, for "2C-B": https://erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal020.shtml https://erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal020.sht...
pmoriarty 5y ago
Unfortunately, this online version doesn't have the first half of the book, which contains autobiographies of both authors and the story of how they met, fell in love, and came to work on this project. When I ran across this book, Shulgin instantly became my hero for daring to do what no one had done before -- to open to the world a treasure trove of hundreds of psychedelics, both in how they are made and what their effects were, each of which he and his intrepid group of psychonauts had tried on themselves. This was completely unheard of at the time, at least on that scale... it probably still is, especially if you consider that after this magnum opus he came out with another huge tome: TiHKAL, which contained information on hundreds of other compounds. If more people were even half as generous and helpful to the world, it would be a much better place.
- graderjs 5y ago
  From the page: ORDERING INFORMATION: The first half of PiHKAL is an excellent commentary on the Shulgin's personal experiences with phenethylamines. It is highly recommended and well worth purchasing the book. Purchasing the book also gets you a far more complete cross-index into the chemicals described in the second half. If you are seriously interested in the chemistry contained in these files, you should order a copy." And The Copyright for Part 1 of PiHKAL has been reserved in all forms and it may not be distributed. Part 2 of PiHKAL may be distributed for non-commerical reproduction provided... And This is the online version of the second half of the book "PiHKAL: A Chemical Love Story" by Alexander and Ann Shulgin. It is presented with the express permission of the authors in order to spread the factual information as widely as possible and make it permanently available in the public domain....
- linspace 5y ago
  > he and his intrepid group of psychonauts had tried on themselves. Unrelated, but couldn't help myself: https://www.doublefine.com/games/psychonauts-2 https://www.doublefine.com/games/psychonauts-2
  - mathieuh 5y ago
    That game also has an entire level which is themed around a psychedelic trip
- jron 5y ago
  Abridged TiHKAL: https://erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/tihkal.shtml https://erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/tihkal.shtml
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
shakezula 5y ago
I love the writing style of these encounters with their brilliant mix of raw objectivity and subjective wonder. Honestly though, I’m just glad to see erowid is alive and well. It’s one of my favorite websites that I don’t get around to often enough, and in my opinion it embodies everything good about the internet.
0F 5y ago
The print version has the autobiographies of the authors as well as all this. I found it interesting that everyone buys the book to learn more about Sasha but his section of the autobiography is rather sparse. It’s his wife who really fills in all the details and gives you a rich illustration of the human aspect of their lives. I am awestruck by one thing in particular. At one point Anne took a drug that basically induced a severe psychiatric disorder, a very painful one. It was essentially the worst case scenario for drug users. But eventually she decided to take decisive action by taking another powerful drug, MDMA. Believe me, I can tell you from personal experience, when you have a severe psychiatric disorder caused by a drug, the idea of taking another drug is terrifying. But, believing it would fix her, she did. And the crazy thing is that it actually worked. I will never understand the strength it must have taken to do that. Sasha shulgin in the greatest hero of our time. He experimented on himself to pave the way for the cure to PTSD and soon many other things. He should be put on the dollar bill.
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  "I will never understand the strength it must have taken to do that." It might have been strength rooted in desperation.
- sva_ 5y ago
  She later did so much MDMA, that it now doesn't have any effect on her anymore, she claims. Doubt she tried it recently though, as she's 91 now. Incidentally, Shulgin didn't discover MDMA himself. It was discovered around 1910 IIRC, but hadn't found to be useful back then. He rediscovered it much later.
  - agency 5y ago
    I've heard similar accounts of MDMA losing effectiveness with folks who have used regularly for extended periods of time. I haven't experienced it myself but I try to wait at least 8-12 weeks between uses. I have a theory that for many people it comes down to the highly variable quality of what you get on the street. I buy all my stuff on the dark net and test it, and after figuring out a couple of other variables that have a big effect on me (mainly: timing of food consumption. I fast minimum 5 hours before a roll) I have had very consistent experiences. But the quality issue would certainly not be at play with the Shulgins so I wonder if there's something to the long term effectiveness stories.
dr_dshiv 5y ago
I remember meeting Sasha at a lecture he gave at UC San Diego. He was around 78 and looked like Santa Claus with the big white beard. He gave the most vibrant lecture on organic chemistry that I ever saw—and I remember thinking: “this guy speaks so clearly yet has literally taken more drugs than any person on the planet.” Anne was there, too. I talked with her afterwards and she was so kind, sharing stories about their last weekend in Barcelona and the power of a mushroom trip combined with Gaudi’s architectural works and sculptures. It all made me realize: I still want to be taking psychedelics in my old age. Why not?
- anaisbetts 5y ago
  Well I mean, at the end of Shulgin's life he had heart valve damage requiring surgery (psychs cause 5-HT2B agonism which can cause heart valvulopathy), advanced dementia, and liver cancer, all three of which are likely consequences of taking psychedelics frequently. It isn't to say that there aren't benefits to taking these drugs in moderation, but if you're looking for a "Why Not", that's definitely something to think about.
  - dspearson 5y ago
    True enough, but his health declined in his late 80s. David Nichols is still going strong in his late 70s, Albert Hofmann died at 102, Ram Dass died at 88. I don't see psychedelics, and their use, as being particularly risky to physical health and longevity. Especially since many of us already consume red meat, tobacco, alcohol, etc.
    - patrec 5y ago
      > I don't see psychedelics, and their use, as being particularly risky to physical health Maybe if you don't count frying your brain as a risk to your physical health.
      - antihero 5y ago
        Is it really fried though? If I didn't want to "fry my brain" I would opt not to participate in this clusterfuck we call modern life.
sph 5y ago
Phenethylamines are fascinating organic compounds and I have a great deal of respect for them. First, they share the same chemical structure as some of the neurotrasmitters that make us tick: dopamine, adrenaline and noradrenaline among others. I have taken some of those mentioned in PIHKAL during my experimentation years, mostly MDMA and 2C-I and they taught me a lot about how my brain works and the power of psychedelics when used with care and responsibly. I can't wait for the day when science finds a way to leverage their capacity for deep introspection in psychotherapy and to manage mental pain. I know MDMA was previously used in couples therapy and and now in helping with PTSD. Lastly, I've recently been diagnosed with ADHD and I'm trialling dexamphetamine, yet another phenethylamine, and it's been life changing the effect it's having on me. Phenethylamines are pretty cool.
- rswskg 5y ago
  I shall also look into this. Thanks!
- stef25 5y ago
  > I know MDMA was previously used in couples therapy and and now in helping with PTSD. 100% this is the best thing couples should do if they need therapy. Anecdotally I see with my own relationship and that of couples I know that almost all problems are due to inadequate communication (Saying the wrong things / not saying the right things). MDMA totally opens you up, enabling you do communicate this to your partner. "I really love you but sometimes I just wish you would X". Understanding the other person's emotional needs and how important they are will go a very long way in fixing a relationship.
- SpodGaju 5y ago
  I would advise you to look into how to help your body make Phenethylamine on its own. You probably have a higher need for P5P (B6) than most people. The enzyme, DDC, needed to make endogenous PEA needs adequate P5P to function. https://www.uniprot.org/uniprot/P20711 https://www.uniprot.org/uniprot/P20711 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1729407/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1729407/ Decarboxylation of phenylalanine by aromatic L-amino acid decarboxylase (AADC) is the rate-limiting step in the synthesis of 2-phenylethylamine (PE), a putative modulator of dopamine transmission.
tayo42 5y ago
2cb was a surprisingly not fun experience. i felt like i was having a heart attack or something the whole time. breathing was hard, my heart felt like it was in my throat the whole time. i find it interesting to read such positive experiences about it. i didnt realize there are two type of mdma either. those descriptions seems kind of regular. mdma is almost always mind blowing i think.
- ycombinete 5y ago
  Even while reading these "positive experience" on Erowid, I feel very anxious. I am definitely not a candidate for these kinds of drugs.
  - stef25 5y ago
    2CB is a very easy one in low doses. Lots of laughter and grinning and mild enhancement of colours.
- lil_dispaches 5y ago
  Maybe you were looking for 2c-d "the tofu of drugs"? I would be >_> https://erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal023.shtml https://erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal023.sht...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- graderjs 5y ago
  Just quoting another comment by someone else under here which somehow disappeared, because I thought it was such a good comment: Shulgin's "A day at the Stanford museum"[1] is much more representative of the beautiful experience it can provide, and the effects you describe are not at all common from what is generally reported. This said, I don't mean to discount your experience in the slightest and don't doubt that it happened as you described. Not only does everyone react differently, but with the current status of these substances it's also often difficult to know exactly what you're taking and how much of it. [1] https://erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal020.shtml https://erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal020.sht...
ndom91 5y ago
+1 that erowid is this around . Spent entirely too much time there as a teenager/young man haha.
- zhynn 5y ago
  Please consider donating! Erowid is an amazing force for good in the world. It is a reminder of what the internet is philosophically capable of.
codetrotter 5y ago
Tangentially related, I just now learned that this page on that site has existed since at least 1999. It looked much the same actually. https://web.archive.org/web/19991012063300/https://erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal.shtml https://web.archive.org/web/19991012063300/https://erowid.or... I had no idea that the site erowid.org itself had existed for so long even. Also, the archived version of the page from 1999 was using a black background. Dark mode before it was cool :)
- capableweb 5y ago
  Maybe I misremember things, but most websites related to counter-culture were very dark and "omniscient" from the very beginning (at least when I first discovered the web, around 2000). It was mostly "proper" businesses that had white or otherwise bright designs. Although in general the web was much more colorful back then overall.
  - pmoriarty 5y ago
    Actually, at the beginning most websites had a white background because that was the default and it took extra knowledge and effort to make the background anything but white. Not to mention that black text on a white background was what most people were used to from books and articles on paper, so it was considered natural.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- refurb 5y ago
  I remember looking at the website (experience database) in the mid-90’s, maybe ‘96? It seemed relatively established then. Amazing to think it’s coming up to 30 years now.
- zhynn 5y ago
  Erowid is one of the OG internet resources. It is an international treasure, and Earth & Fire Erowid should get a dang medal for their stewardship. Edit: please consider donating!
echelon_musk 5y ago
I love this book and also the fantastic TiKHAL. Anyone interested to know more is strongly advised to watch the documentary Dirty Pictures [0] so-called for Sasha's structural formulas of compounds. [0] https://imdb.com/title/tt1592855/ https://imdb.com/title/tt1592855/
qwerty456127 5y ago
I have an idea that people who had an experience of taking a strong synthetic phenethylamine generally have much higher emotional intelligence as compared to ordinary people. Because such an experience is a strong demonstration of how does chemistry define how do you feel and also an example of feelings so strong you can not get away without observing them with awareness (oddly enough it seems many people have no conscious experience of observing their emotions).
- stef25 5y ago
  Which is the cause and which is the effect?
hilbert42 5y ago
I wonder why so many HN readers are interested in phenethylamine-type chemicals. Sure, there will be a small percentage who will be consumers of said chemicals who've a vested interest and no doubt there are organic chemists who will have a professional interest in said molecules even if they're never likely to work with them in person, but that still leaves many interested bystanders who've more than just a casual interest. Even I—who is far too timid to take anything that doesn't come out of a reputable pharmaceutical company let alone ever risk manufacturing any of these chemicals—have an interest and can pretty much instantly recognize one of these molecules the moment I see its skeletal formula—even if I can't necessarily remember which specific one it is. So what is the principal interest among the mere curious—is it cultural, or the fact that society has gone to great lengths to ban them, or is it just a technical curiosity about the effect they have on humans? There's little doubt there’s much interest among HN readers in the subject as this is the second article to appear on HN's same page-one only three stories removed from the first, the earlier one being Derek Lowe's article The Uselessness of Phenylephrine (science.org). At the time of this post that article had received 559 comments. In my comment to Lowe's article, I referred to an older HN article of similar nature posted at the end of November last year on the availability of the precursor phenylacetone—aka phenyl-2-propanone, P2P—and that story also had a large number of comments—361 in total. Incidentally, my post to Lowe’s article was, I thought, a pretty innocuous one wherein I essentially agreed with Lowe’s comments and provided the link to the older HN P2P story that essentially backed up what Lowe was saying, nevertheless it received a number of down-votes without any explanation. It seems such stories are still quite divisive on HN.
- dylan604 5y ago
  >come out of a reputable pharmaceutical company Please, name one of these reputable companies for me. One that does not push pills based on their bottom line but for actually improving the health of users. One that has not been known for rewarding doctors for pushing their pill over a competitors pill. One that does not have advertisments on TV/print/internet that talk about a side effect might be death, but still encourage random people to push their doctors.
  - 5y ago
kizer 5y ago
I like Adderall. What's like Adderall?
- perardi 5y ago
  Mephedrone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mephedrone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mephedrone
spansoa 5y ago
As Terence McKenna said, "When you get the message, hang up the phone." It's useful advice, for those who don't want to get burnt out on acid. So many suffer the 'grim meathook reality' as Hunter Thompson wrote. I mean psychedelics do induce spiritual experiences when the set & setting is right, but too many over-indulge and think they're the Messiah / Second Coming after it all, which is dangerous. Also: the west has no shamanic centers where we can do psychedelics safely, apart from the Native American churches where you can do peyote rituals without getting arrested. Sadly the men in white coats are the closest thing to a shaman you can get in the West, and we sometimes need a sitter/guide especially with high doses, preferably someone who has done it before multiple times, and can calm you down incase you start having very pronounced anxiety.
- ribs 5y ago
  Seems like a good time to link to the Fireside Project, who do psychedelic peer counseling over the phone. Non-profit, free. https://firesideproject.org/ https://firesideproject.org/
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  "As Terence McKenna said, "When you get the message, hang up the phone."" That quote originally came from Alan Watts, not Terence McKenna (who, incidentally, didn't hang up the phone until near the end of his life, when he supposedly was too scared to do more mushrooms). Alan Watts said: "[P]sychedelic experience is only a glimpse of genuine mystical insight, but a glimpse which can be matured and deepened by the various ways of meditation in which drugs are no longer necessary or useful. When you get the message, hang up the phone. For psychedelic drugs are simply instruments, like microscopes, telescopes, and telephones. The biologist does not sit with eye permanently glued to the microscope; he goes away and works on what he has seen."[1] To which I think it was Ram Dass or Dennis McKenna who answered: "I don't hang up on my teachers." Also, what if you forget the message (as often the states in question are ineffable and the insights one gets are not able to be carried in to ordinary waking consciousness, or not for long)... or what if there is no message, just as seeing a sunset is devoid of messages but still worth seeing? What if you consider the experience sacred or a way to connect to your god(s), the spirit world, transcendent reality, or nature? What if you use psychedelics to enhance your creativity, have fun, or treat your depression? None of these uses fit neatly in to the narrow "message" paradigm that Watts was talking about. [1] - https://medium.com/@allevity/they-killed-alan-watts-quote-8b5f388730fc https://medium.com/@allevity/they-killed-alan-watts-quote-8b...
danielvaughn 5y ago
I can't believe erowid is still up. I was obsessed with this site back in 2005, would spend hours reading and learning about all the different drugs. Never was much into drugs beyond marijuana, but then I tried MDMA one night and had an almost spiritual experience on it. It became a personal passion of mine that lasted about 6 months, and in that time frame I tried LSD, mushrooms, a variety of pills, even mescaline. Eventually I had a very bad experience on drugs and decided it was best not to continue the journey, but nothing ever came close to what I had experienced that first time with MDMA.
- erdos4d 5y ago
  > nothing ever came close to what I had experienced that first time with MDMA. Same here, that stuff is magical the first time.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  "nothing ever came close to what I had experienced that first time with MDMA" The common experience of there being something special/magical about the first time on MDMA (and some other compounds) is evidence that it's probably changing your brain in some way. Hopefully with more research we'll eventually figure out what's happening there and make every use just as magical.
  - droopyEyelids 5y ago
    I have solved this mystery for myself, and the answer was 'the burden of expectations' is what has changed. To reset tolerance, I have to wait till I've forgotten what the experience is really like, and only have vague memories.
    - danielvaughn 5y ago
      It's been about 17 years, that should be long enough :)

202 points by graderjs 5y ago

The co-author, Alexander Shulgin, had an interesting career: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Shulgin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Shulgin

graderjs 5y ago

I just love the way Ann and he write up the bioassays. Take a look, for instance, at this one, for "2C-B": https://erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal020.shtml https://erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal020.sht...

pmoriarty 5y ago

Unfortunately, this online version doesn't have the first half of the book, which contains autobiographies of both authors and the story of how they met, fell in love, and came to work on this project. When I ran across this book, Shulgin instantly became my hero for daring to do what no one had done before -- to open to the world a treasure trove of hundreds of psychedelics, both in how they are made and what their effects were, each of which he and his intrepid group of psychonauts had tried on themselves. This was completely unheard of at the time, at least on that scale... it probably still is, especially if you consider that after this magnum opus he came out with another huge tome: TiHKAL, which contained information on hundreds of other compounds. If more people were even half as generous and helpful to the world, it would be a much better place.

graderjs 5y ago
From the page: ORDERING INFORMATION: The first half of PiHKAL is an excellent commentary on the Shulgin's personal experiences with phenethylamines. It is highly recommended and well worth purchasing the book. Purchasing the book also gets you a far more complete cross-index into the chemicals described in the second half. If you are seriously interested in the chemistry contained in these files, you should order a copy." And The Copyright for Part 1 of PiHKAL has been reserved in all forms and it may not be distributed. Part 2 of PiHKAL may be distributed for non-commerical reproduction provided... And This is the online version of the second half of the book "PiHKAL: A Chemical Love Story" by Alexander and Ann Shulgin. It is presented with the express permission of the authors in order to spread the factual information as widely as possible and make it permanently available in the public domain....
linspace 5y ago
> he and his intrepid group of psychonauts had tried on themselves. Unrelated, but couldn't help myself: https://www.doublefine.com/games/psychonauts-2 https://www.doublefine.com/games/psychonauts-2
- mathieuh 5y ago
  That game also has an entire level which is themed around a psychedelic trip
jron 5y ago
Abridged TiHKAL: https://erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/tihkal.shtml https://erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/tihkal.shtml

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

shakezula 5y ago

I love the writing style of these encounters with their brilliant mix of raw objectivity and subjective wonder. Honestly though, I’m just glad to see erowid is alive and well. It’s one of my favorite websites that I don’t get around to often enough, and in my opinion it embodies everything good about the internet.

0F 5y ago

The print version has the autobiographies of the authors as well as all this. I found it interesting that everyone buys the book to learn more about Sasha but his section of the autobiography is rather sparse. It’s his wife who really fills in all the details and gives you a rich illustration of the human aspect of their lives. I am awestruck by one thing in particular. At one point Anne took a drug that basically induced a severe psychiatric disorder, a very painful one. It was essentially the worst case scenario for drug users. But eventually she decided to take decisive action by taking another powerful drug, MDMA. Believe me, I can tell you from personal experience, when you have a severe psychiatric disorder caused by a drug, the idea of taking another drug is terrifying. But, believing it would fix her, she did. And the crazy thing is that it actually worked. I will never understand the strength it must have taken to do that. Sasha shulgin in the greatest hero of our time. He experimented on himself to pave the way for the cure to PTSD and soon many other things. He should be put on the dollar bill.

hutzlibu 5y ago
"I will never understand the strength it must have taken to do that." It might have been strength rooted in desperation.
sva_ 5y ago
She later did so much MDMA, that it now doesn't have any effect on her anymore, she claims. Doubt she tried it recently though, as she's 91 now. Incidentally, Shulgin didn't discover MDMA himself. It was discovered around 1910 IIRC, but hadn't found to be useful back then. He rediscovered it much later.
- agency 5y ago
  I've heard similar accounts of MDMA losing effectiveness with folks who have used regularly for extended periods of time. I haven't experienced it myself but I try to wait at least 8-12 weeks between uses. I have a theory that for many people it comes down to the highly variable quality of what you get on the street. I buy all my stuff on the dark net and test it, and after figuring out a couple of other variables that have a big effect on me (mainly: timing of food consumption. I fast minimum 5 hours before a roll) I have had very consistent experiences. But the quality issue would certainly not be at play with the Shulgins so I wonder if there's something to the long term effectiveness stories.

dr_dshiv 5y ago

I remember meeting Sasha at a lecture he gave at UC San Diego. He was around 78 and looked like Santa Claus with the big white beard. He gave the most vibrant lecture on organic chemistry that I ever saw—and I remember thinking: “this guy speaks so clearly yet has literally taken more drugs than any person on the planet.” Anne was there, too. I talked with her afterwards and she was so kind, sharing stories about their last weekend in Barcelona and the power of a mushroom trip combined with Gaudi’s architectural works and sculptures. It all made me realize: I still want to be taking psychedelics in my old age. Why not?

anaisbetts 5y ago
Well I mean, at the end of Shulgin's life he had heart valve damage requiring surgery (psychs cause 5-HT2B agonism which can cause heart valvulopathy), advanced dementia, and liver cancer, all three of which are likely consequences of taking psychedelics frequently. It isn't to say that there aren't benefits to taking these drugs in moderation, but if you're looking for a "Why Not", that's definitely something to think about.
- dspearson 5y ago
  True enough, but his health declined in his late 80s. David Nichols is still going strong in his late 70s, Albert Hofmann died at 102, Ram Dass died at 88. I don't see psychedelics, and their use, as being particularly risky to physical health and longevity. Especially since many of us already consume red meat, tobacco, alcohol, etc.
  - patrec 5y ago
    > I don't see psychedelics, and their use, as being particularly risky to physical health Maybe if you don't count frying your brain as a risk to your physical health.
    - antihero 5y ago
      Is it really fried though? If I didn't want to "fry my brain" I would opt not to participate in this clusterfuck we call modern life.

sph 5y ago

Phenethylamines are fascinating organic compounds and I have a great deal of respect for them. First, they share the same chemical structure as some of the neurotrasmitters that make us tick: dopamine, adrenaline and noradrenaline among others. I have taken some of those mentioned in PIHKAL during my experimentation years, mostly MDMA and 2C-I and they taught me a lot about how my brain works and the power of psychedelics when used with care and responsibly. I can't wait for the day when science finds a way to leverage their capacity for deep introspection in psychotherapy and to manage mental pain. I know MDMA was previously used in couples therapy and and now in helping with PTSD. Lastly, I've recently been diagnosed with ADHD and I'm trialling dexamphetamine, yet another phenethylamine, and it's been life changing the effect it's having on me. Phenethylamines are pretty cool.

rswskg 5y ago
I shall also look into this. Thanks!
stef25 5y ago
> I know MDMA was previously used in couples therapy and and now in helping with PTSD. 100% this is the best thing couples should do if they need therapy. Anecdotally I see with my own relationship and that of couples I know that almost all problems are due to inadequate communication (Saying the wrong things / not saying the right things). MDMA totally opens you up, enabling you do communicate this to your partner. "I really love you but sometimes I just wish you would X". Understanding the other person's emotional needs and how important they are will go a very long way in fixing a relationship.
SpodGaju 5y ago
I would advise you to look into how to help your body make Phenethylamine on its own. You probably have a higher need for P5P (B6) than most people. The enzyme, DDC, needed to make endogenous PEA needs adequate P5P to function. https://www.uniprot.org/uniprot/P20711 https://www.uniprot.org/uniprot/P20711 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1729407/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1729407/ Decarboxylation of phenylalanine by aromatic L-amino acid decarboxylase (AADC) is the rate-limiting step in the synthesis of 2-phenylethylamine (PE), a putative modulator of dopamine transmission.

tayo42 5y ago

2cb was a surprisingly not fun experience. i felt like i was having a heart attack or something the whole time. breathing was hard, my heart felt like it was in my throat the whole time. i find it interesting to read such positive experiences about it. i didnt realize there are two type of mdma either. those descriptions seems kind of regular. mdma is almost always mind blowing i think.

ycombinete 5y ago
Even while reading these "positive experience" on Erowid, I feel very anxious. I am definitely not a candidate for these kinds of drugs.
- stef25 5y ago
  2CB is a very easy one in low doses. Lots of laughter and grinning and mild enhancement of colours.
lil_dispaches 5y ago
Maybe you were looking for 2c-d "the tofu of drugs"? I would be >_> https://erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal023.shtml https://erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal023.sht...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
graderjs 5y ago
Just quoting another comment by someone else under here which somehow disappeared, because I thought it was such a good comment: Shulgin's "A day at the Stanford museum"[1] is much more representative of the beautiful experience it can provide, and the effects you describe are not at all common from what is generally reported. This said, I don't mean to discount your experience in the slightest and don't doubt that it happened as you described. Not only does everyone react differently, but with the current status of these substances it's also often difficult to know exactly what you're taking and how much of it. [1] https://erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal020.shtml https://erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal020.sht...

ndom91 5y ago

+1 that erowid is this around . Spent entirely too much time there as a teenager/young man haha.

zhynn 5y ago
Please consider donating! Erowid is an amazing force for good in the world. It is a reminder of what the internet is philosophically capable of.

codetrotter 5y ago

Tangentially related, I just now learned that this page on that site has existed since at least 1999. It looked much the same actually. https://web.archive.org/web/19991012063300/https://erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal.shtml https://web.archive.org/web/19991012063300/https://erowid.or... I had no idea that the site erowid.org itself had existed for so long even. Also, the archived version of the page from 1999 was using a black background. Dark mode before it was cool :)

capableweb 5y ago
Maybe I misremember things, but most websites related to counter-culture were very dark and "omniscient" from the very beginning (at least when I first discovered the web, around 2000). It was mostly "proper" businesses that had white or otherwise bright designs. Although in general the web was much more colorful back then overall.
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  Actually, at the beginning most websites had a white background because that was the default and it took extra knowledge and effort to make the background anything but white. Not to mention that black text on a white background was what most people were used to from books and articles on paper, so it was considered natural.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
refurb 5y ago
I remember looking at the website (experience database) in the mid-90’s, maybe ‘96? It seemed relatively established then. Amazing to think it’s coming up to 30 years now.
zhynn 5y ago
Erowid is one of the OG internet resources. It is an international treasure, and Earth & Fire Erowid should get a dang medal for their stewardship. Edit: please consider donating!

echelon_musk 5y ago

I love this book and also the fantastic TiKHAL. Anyone interested to know more is strongly advised to watch the documentary Dirty Pictures [0] so-called for Sasha's structural formulas of compounds. [0] https://imdb.com/title/tt1592855/ https://imdb.com/title/tt1592855/

qwerty456127 5y ago

I have an idea that people who had an experience of taking a strong synthetic phenethylamine generally have much higher emotional intelligence as compared to ordinary people. Because such an experience is a strong demonstration of how does chemistry define how do you feel and also an example of feelings so strong you can not get away without observing them with awareness (oddly enough it seems many people have no conscious experience of observing their emotions).

stef25 5y ago
Which is the cause and which is the effect?

hilbert42 5y ago

I wonder why so many HN readers are interested in phenethylamine-type chemicals. Sure, there will be a small percentage who will be consumers of said chemicals who've a vested interest and no doubt there are organic chemists who will have a professional interest in said molecules even if they're never likely to work with them in person, but that still leaves many interested bystanders who've more than just a casual interest. Even I—who is far too timid to take anything that doesn't come out of a reputable pharmaceutical company let alone ever risk manufacturing any of these chemicals—have an interest and can pretty much instantly recognize one of these molecules the moment I see its skeletal formula—even if I can't necessarily remember which specific one it is. So what is the principal interest among the mere curious—is it cultural, or the fact that society has gone to great lengths to ban them, or is it just a technical curiosity about the effect they have on humans? There's little doubt there’s much interest among HN readers in the subject as this is the second article to appear on HN's same page-one only three stories removed from the first, the earlier one being Derek Lowe's article The Uselessness of Phenylephrine (science.org). At the time of this post that article had received 559 comments. In my comment to Lowe's article, I referred to an older HN article of similar nature posted at the end of November last year on the availability of the precursor phenylacetone—aka phenyl-2-propanone, P2P—and that story also had a large number of comments—361 in total. Incidentally, my post to Lowe’s article was, I thought, a pretty innocuous one wherein I essentially agreed with Lowe’s comments and provided the link to the older HN P2P story that essentially backed up what Lowe was saying, nevertheless it received a number of down-votes without any explanation. It seems such stories are still quite divisive on HN.

dylan604 5y ago
>come out of a reputable pharmaceutical company Please, name one of these reputable companies for me. One that does not push pills based on their bottom line but for actually improving the health of users. One that has not been known for rewarding doctors for pushing their pill over a competitors pill. One that does not have advertisments on TV/print/internet that talk about a side effect might be death, but still encourage random people to push their doctors.
- 5y ago

kizer 5y ago

I like Adderall. What's like Adderall?

perardi 5y ago
Mephedrone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mephedrone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mephedrone

spansoa 5y ago

As Terence McKenna said, "When you get the message, hang up the phone." It's useful advice, for those who don't want to get burnt out on acid. So many suffer the 'grim meathook reality' as Hunter Thompson wrote. I mean psychedelics do induce spiritual experiences when the set & setting is right, but too many over-indulge and think they're the Messiah / Second Coming after it all, which is dangerous. Also: the west has no shamanic centers where we can do psychedelics safely, apart from the Native American churches where you can do peyote rituals without getting arrested. Sadly the men in white coats are the closest thing to a shaman you can get in the West, and we sometimes need a sitter/guide especially with high doses, preferably someone who has done it before multiple times, and can calm you down incase you start having very pronounced anxiety.

ribs 5y ago
Seems like a good time to link to the Fireside Project, who do psychedelic peer counseling over the phone. Non-profit, free. https://firesideproject.org/ https://firesideproject.org/
pmoriarty 5y ago
"As Terence McKenna said, "When you get the message, hang up the phone."" That quote originally came from Alan Watts, not Terence McKenna (who, incidentally, didn't hang up the phone until near the end of his life, when he supposedly was too scared to do more mushrooms). Alan Watts said: "[P]sychedelic experience is only a glimpse of genuine mystical insight, but a glimpse which can be matured and deepened by the various ways of meditation in which drugs are no longer necessary or useful. When you get the message, hang up the phone. For psychedelic drugs are simply instruments, like microscopes, telescopes, and telephones. The biologist does not sit with eye permanently glued to the microscope; he goes away and works on what he has seen."[1] To which I think it was Ram Dass or Dennis McKenna who answered: "I don't hang up on my teachers." Also, what if you forget the message (as often the states in question are ineffable and the insights one gets are not able to be carried in to ordinary waking consciousness, or not for long)... or what if there is no message, just as seeing a sunset is devoid of messages but still worth seeing? What if you consider the experience sacred or a way to connect to your god(s), the spirit world, transcendent reality, or nature? What if you use psychedelics to enhance your creativity, have fun, or treat your depression? None of these uses fit neatly in to the narrow "message" paradigm that Watts was talking about. [1] - https://medium.com/@allevity/they-killed-alan-watts-quote-8b5f388730fc https://medium.com/@allevity/they-killed-alan-watts-quote-8b...

danielvaughn 5y ago

I can't believe erowid is still up. I was obsessed with this site back in 2005, would spend hours reading and learning about all the different drugs. Never was much into drugs beyond marijuana, but then I tried MDMA one night and had an almost spiritual experience on it. It became a personal passion of mine that lasted about 6 months, and in that time frame I tried LSD, mushrooms, a variety of pills, even mescaline. Eventually I had a very bad experience on drugs and decided it was best not to continue the journey, but nothing ever came close to what I had experienced that first time with MDMA.

erdos4d 5y ago
> nothing ever came close to what I had experienced that first time with MDMA. Same here, that stuff is magical the first time.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
pmoriarty 5y ago
"nothing ever came close to what I had experienced that first time with MDMA" The common experience of there being something special/magical about the first time on MDMA (and some other compounds) is evidence that it's probably changing your brain in some way. Hopefully with more research we'll eventually figure out what's happening there and make every use just as magical.
- droopyEyelids 5y ago
  I have solved this mystery for myself, and the answer was 'the burden of expectations' is what has changed. To reset tolerance, I have to wait till I've forgotten what the experience is really like, and only have vague memories.
  - danielvaughn 5y ago
    It's been about 17 years, that should be long enough :)