8 ms·

Thanks for posting this. Yesterday I came across a job position on a company that does 100% mob(!) programming everyday¹. This means every programmer works 6 ho

Thanks for posting this. Yesterday I came across a job position on a company that does 100% mob(!) programming everyday¹. This means every programmer works 6 hours per day on a zoom call with 2 other programmers, rotating roles between typist, navigator and support every ten minutes. I couldn't help but feel my soul being slowly crushed as I read further on their description of the daily activities. Needless to say, the filter indeed worked out. As someone with ADHD, I couldn't last a single day on a job like that. [1]: https://engineering.meetsoci.com/mob-programming https://engineering.meetsoci.com/mob-programming

switchbak 5y ago
That kind of context switching sounds like it's horrible for just about everyone (including the business).
- toomanydoubts 5y ago
  Honestly, it's sounds kinda insane. Mob programming certainly is a tool with its good use cases, like maybe tracking a bug, onboarding a new team member or making critical changes to core stuff. However, I just can't imagine having three engineers making 100k+ sitted together everyday on a single laptop to write yet another REST api or whatever.
  - a9h74j 5y ago
    Does Zoom have a "Mutex" button for obtaining keyboard access?
    - jcal93 5y ago
      I lol'd at this... was thinking the same thing. "Who's driving!"
  - replyifuagree 5y ago
    Compare that to 3 engineers struggling through solving problems in isolation because they lack information that is in each other's head. Culturally traditional management is biased to create the 3 struggling engineers scenario because most management strongly believes that people working on many tasks in parallel is peak efficiency. You see this manifest in places that run the Jira + PR feature mill. Staff that complete lots of jiras and have lots of green dots PRs in their GitHub profile are considered "peak performers" The fortune 500 is littered with companies full of this anti-pattern. Less so each year though, because if amazing execution on digital transformation matters to the business, to the extent those 3 struggling engineers execute poorly, the competition slowly eats the incumbent's market share.
    - p_l 5y ago
      There's a big difference between "free flow of information" between engineers and enforced mob programming. The former often works quite well with just regular unstructured meetings, whether face to face or online.
  - tomhallett 5y ago
    We use "mob programming" once a week for 30 minutes, in a way that you described - a "Sentry Smackdown". In zoom, we find 3 of the most "interesting" sentry errors, split up into 3 break out rooms, each group sees what they can find, then 5 minutes at the end to give our update and next steps. I love it and it's helped get momentum on things which would typically just sit there. BUT, 30 minutes is definitely my maximum for something like this.... even if we did something minor like make this meeting 1 hour long - I would dread it. Context: we do have an engineer on-call (on a weekly basis) and they will respond to urgent sentry errors, but the above helps sentry errors with less urgency get moving without being a total buzkill for the on-call engineer to look at ALL of them.
- a9h74j 5y ago
  Perhaps some psychologist at Yale has embezzled $50 million and is using it to fund a startup for psychology research purposes.
  - necovek 5y ago
    I'd love it if it was that! :D
- vkou 5y ago
  It's great at keeping both programmers 100% focused on the work, instead of on commenting on HN. But it does quickly lead to exhaustion.
creakingstairs 5y ago
> 100% mob(!) programming everyday I've been in a team that does this. I did appreciate the knowledge share from the expert the first month despite the fact it completely drained me. After awhile, I hated the whole thing and dreaded going to work. I get it works for some people, but I know it is not for me. > on a zoom call This would make this about 10 times worse. I wouldn't last a week.
- rhizome 5y ago
  what better way to ensure you get CS degreed ppl for positions that legally can't require one than to reproduce the "group project" model as an organizational principle?
  - ajmurmann 5y ago
    CS group projects are biting like pair programming. Most CS group projects I've been on were a game of chicken where everyone would wait for others to do the work. If you don't pull your weight on pair programming it's quickly obvious and you'll get feedback.
    - kimixa 5y ago
      At this point I suspect that the "group projects" often done in CS degrees are actually intended to give the student experience in a failed project and learning from their mistakes, and understanding that not every project is a success or failure due to their actions alone.
      - saulrh 5y ago
        Kind of backfired for me, because only very rarely were professors able to assign projects that were big enough that I couldn't do them entirely by myself, and I was outright incentivized to do so because even working at that speed I could still produce the whole project at A-grade quality when my teammates would have been satisfied with a B or a C.
boringg 5y ago
I resonate with your comment and the comment before. Every time I've had to pair program it has completely drained me. It's impossible to both do the deep logistic work component in my head and communicate clearly with someone else. It's like too many tasks working at the same time. I've never tried to itemize how my brain works in that regards though. Thanks for both of your comments. The mob programming sounds like I would be depleted way to fast.
ipaddr 5y ago
I went to that interview a few years ago. I got to experience the mob live programming interview. It sounded bad going in but things often turn out better. It felt like I was live streaming on twitch with a small disinterested following. Hard to imagine 6 hours a day in that state. It feels like one of those places that will make you rethink if you want to remain in the industry.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mjrbrennan 5y ago
Doing this in person sounds bad, doing this over Zoom would be monstrous. Back at a previous job I had to do pairing for many hours of the day over Zoom with less experienced developers, and it was unpleasant to say the least!
Stratoscope 5y ago
Wow. I recommend everyone read through that page. Some may love it. Obviously the bosses at SOCi do. For me it is a dystopian nightmare. To summarize: there are three roles, Typist, Navigator, and Support. The Typist is not allowed to think. They are explicitly described as a "smart input device". For the most part, only the Navigator is allowed to think. They tell the Typist exactly what to type, and the Typist must follow everything the Navigator speaks, to the letter. The Support only looks over both their shoulders and sets a 10 minute timer after which the roles rotate. Yes, every 10 minutes everyone switches roles. When working in person, one thing this selects for is people with perfect vision. Elderly programmers need not apply! Why do I say that? Well, I have computer glasses that let me see my screen perfectly even at my age. This applies to anyone over 40-50: if you don't have them already, I strongly recommend getting a pair of single vision prescription lenses tuned for your normal distance from the screen. Since I use a laptop, these glasses are set for a 20" focus distance. I have two external monitors (one landscape above the laptop, the other in portrait mode to one side), and I keep those at the same 20" distance from my eyes. It is glorious! Everything is in focus, all the time. If we're sitting around a desk, it's almost certain that I won't be able to read what's on your screen, for the simple reason that it won't be at a distance that brings it into focus (probably much too far away). Oh, and you may like dark themes and tiny fonts like all the young people use these days. So even if it were at the right distance I wouldn't be able to read what's on the screen. Mobbing on a Zoom call mitigates the focus distance, but the dark theme and tiny fonts would still mean I can't see your code. And webcams are supposed to be on all the time so your fellow mobsters can see your face. A nice sentiment, but two problems: 1. I can't work sitting. If I do, I fall asleep after a while. 2. I can work standing, but not standing still! (I'm no John Carmack, who can give an hour long talk without moving a muscle.) I have to move around in order to think and stay alive. So I would constantly be walking in and out of camera range, or stretching, or wiggling around on my Fluidstance balance board, or just looking out the window for a vision break. A more delicate problem: Sometimes older people need to take more frequent bathroom breaks, and the timing may be unpredictable, especially for someone like me who eats a lot of fiber for intestinal health. Sorry, I may not be able to just "hold it" until the next scheduled mob break. (Apologies for the TMI.) This whole thing is an ADA compliance lawsuit just waiting to happen. (And no, I'm not going to be the test case; I have no interest in working for a company with these practices.)
mylons 5y ago
tangential question: I'm 37 and think I have ADHD. My partner thinks I do, and when I read posts like this I deeply identify with them. What should I do? Get a diagnosis? My ignorance thinks the only course after that is drugs which doesn't sound that appealing..
- kayodelycaon 5y ago
  I highly recommend talking to a psychiatrist or psychologist that can see if you fit the criteria. However, if you’re willing to do your own research, you may be able to find a family doctor willing to let you try a few mediations before referring you to a specialist. (I did.) ADHD medication is excellent from a patient’s perspective. The first-line ones are almost immediately effective. If you don’t like what they do, you can just stop taking them and try another one. In less than a year, you can try most of the known-working medications. Even if nothing comes of it, at least you know. Knowing is half the battle. :)
- joneskoo 5y ago
  Getting a diagnosis does not mean having to medicate. If it’s not for you, you can get non-medical forms of help. Not help as in you need help but rather help to make your life easier. If you think you may have ADHD, definitely worth it to understand more about ADHD and a diagnosis will help those close to you to understand your behavior.
- spookthesunset 5y ago
  I’d suggest trying the meds before you form an option on them. I take my ADHD meds every day just the same as somebody else takes heart medicine or wears glasses. It just is what it is. And note: it does sometimes make you feel like cheating or something… you will have to arrive at your own conclusions. Suggest a good therapist to help deal with it.
  - Cthulhu_ 5y ago
    This is the one; one diagnosis for ADHD is to take the medication and see how you feel. I've heard a colleague, also in his 30's, describe it as his head finally going quiet. I've tried my girlfriend's medication (also a mid-30's diagnosis) and it didn't have that effect, I just noticed I was a lot more deliberate in focusing on and switching between tasks.
beambot 5y ago
Seems a bit draconian to force mob programming onto every programmer everyday, but I also find the idea appealing if I was selecting the team & when to do it -- there are definitely teams & topics where I would find this flow productive & helpful! For example, we had a similar arrangement back when we were doing ACM programming competitions.
- p_l 5y ago
  In similar conditions, like Capture the Flag competitions, we regularly used short-term arrangements that might seem like mob programming, often by just deciding to go to whiteboard and try to figure out the problem and thus implicitly inviting others to join if they have spare cycles. Wildly different experience compared to mob/pair programming all the time.
weq 5y ago
I love pair programming !!!for specific tasks!!! Just like TDD, i think its pragmatic and should be based on your needs. But all or nothing, naaa, thats just coolaid or micromanagement.
smcl 5y ago
That sounds like torture
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
Very bluntly put: full-time pair and/or mob programming is for and by neurotypical extroverts. People for who their job is a social activity, for who deep work and deep focus on their own are mostly foreign concepts. I mean to each their own, but companies - and fellow developers - need to stop forcing others into their way of working. Having One True Way of doing things is always bad. But yes, this may mean there will be a divide in your company / teams, where one part prefers solo work while others prefer group work. Deal with it. Compromise. Let the extroverts work on their own for a while, and the introverts do some pair programming, but don't go all in on one or the other.
- troupe 5y ago
  I'm not sure why a company needs to work in a certain way just because some people don't like to work in that way. It is like saying a java shop needs to use c# as well just because some people are more comfortable with c#. No. They don't. It is just fine for developers that want to write in c# to find a company that is invested in a culture around doing c#. This isn't just true with programming. If you like to do things solo, then don't become an airline pilot since they always work in pairs. There are plenty of other places you can work as a solo pilot. Airline pilots work in pairs because, for that type of work, there are advantages to doing so. If a company wants to "go all in" on pair or mob programming, there may be very good reasons for doing so and trying to have a split culture doesn't always work.
Tarucho 5y ago
As someone in his forties I wouldn´t be able to pull this off either. It will drain me. With age it takes longer to focus.

switchbak 5y ago

That kind of context switching sounds like it's horrible for just about everyone (including the business).

toomanydoubts 5y ago
Honestly, it's sounds kinda insane. Mob programming certainly is a tool with its good use cases, like maybe tracking a bug, onboarding a new team member or making critical changes to core stuff. However, I just can't imagine having three engineers making 100k+ sitted together everyday on a single laptop to write yet another REST api or whatever.
- a9h74j 5y ago
  Does Zoom have a "Mutex" button for obtaining keyboard access?
  - jcal93 5y ago
    I lol'd at this... was thinking the same thing. "Who's driving!"
- replyifuagree 5y ago
  Compare that to 3 engineers struggling through solving problems in isolation because they lack information that is in each other's head. Culturally traditional management is biased to create the 3 struggling engineers scenario because most management strongly believes that people working on many tasks in parallel is peak efficiency. You see this manifest in places that run the Jira + PR feature mill. Staff that complete lots of jiras and have lots of green dots PRs in their GitHub profile are considered "peak performers" The fortune 500 is littered with companies full of this anti-pattern. Less so each year though, because if amazing execution on digital transformation matters to the business, to the extent those 3 struggling engineers execute poorly, the competition slowly eats the incumbent's market share.
  - p_l 5y ago
    There's a big difference between "free flow of information" between engineers and enforced mob programming. The former often works quite well with just regular unstructured meetings, whether face to face or online.
- tomhallett 5y ago
  We use "mob programming" once a week for 30 minutes, in a way that you described - a "Sentry Smackdown". In zoom, we find 3 of the most "interesting" sentry errors, split up into 3 break out rooms, each group sees what they can find, then 5 minutes at the end to give our update and next steps. I love it and it's helped get momentum on things which would typically just sit there. BUT, 30 minutes is definitely my maximum for something like this.... even if we did something minor like make this meeting 1 hour long - I would dread it. Context: we do have an engineer on-call (on a weekly basis) and they will respond to urgent sentry errors, but the above helps sentry errors with less urgency get moving without being a total buzkill for the on-call engineer to look at ALL of them.
a9h74j 5y ago
Perhaps some psychologist at Yale has embezzled $50 million and is using it to fund a startup for psychology research purposes.
- necovek 5y ago
  I'd love it if it was that! :D
vkou 5y ago
It's great at keeping both programmers 100% focused on the work, instead of on commenting on HN. But it does quickly lead to exhaustion.

creakingstairs 5y ago

> 100% mob(!) programming everyday I've been in a team that does this. I did appreciate the knowledge share from the expert the first month despite the fact it completely drained me. After awhile, I hated the whole thing and dreaded going to work. I get it works for some people, but I know it is not for me. > on a zoom call This would make this about 10 times worse. I wouldn't last a week.

rhizome 5y ago
what better way to ensure you get CS degreed ppl for positions that legally can't require one than to reproduce the "group project" model as an organizational principle?
- ajmurmann 5y ago
  CS group projects are biting like pair programming. Most CS group projects I've been on were a game of chicken where everyone would wait for others to do the work. If you don't pull your weight on pair programming it's quickly obvious and you'll get feedback.
  - kimixa 5y ago
    At this point I suspect that the "group projects" often done in CS degrees are actually intended to give the student experience in a failed project and learning from their mistakes, and understanding that not every project is a success or failure due to their actions alone.
    - saulrh 5y ago
      Kind of backfired for me, because only very rarely were professors able to assign projects that were big enough that I couldn't do them entirely by myself, and I was outright incentivized to do so because even working at that speed I could still produce the whole project at A-grade quality when my teammates would have been satisfied with a B or a C.

boringg 5y ago

I resonate with your comment and the comment before. Every time I've had to pair program it has completely drained me. It's impossible to both do the deep logistic work component in my head and communicate clearly with someone else. It's like too many tasks working at the same time. I've never tried to itemize how my brain works in that regards though. Thanks for both of your comments. The mob programming sounds like I would be depleted way to fast.

ipaddr 5y ago

I went to that interview a few years ago. I got to experience the mob live programming interview. It sounded bad going in but things often turn out better. It felt like I was live streaming on twitch with a small disinterested following. Hard to imagine 6 hours a day in that state. It feels like one of those places that will make you rethink if you want to remain in the industry.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

mjrbrennan 5y ago

Doing this in person sounds bad, doing this over Zoom would be monstrous. Back at a previous job I had to do pairing for many hours of the day over Zoom with less experienced developers, and it was unpleasant to say the least!

Stratoscope 5y ago

Wow. I recommend everyone read through that page. Some may love it. Obviously the bosses at SOCi do. For me it is a dystopian nightmare. To summarize: there are three roles, Typist, Navigator, and Support. The Typist is not allowed to think. They are explicitly described as a "smart input device". For the most part, only the Navigator is allowed to think. They tell the Typist exactly what to type, and the Typist must follow everything the Navigator speaks, to the letter. The Support only looks over both their shoulders and sets a 10 minute timer after which the roles rotate. Yes, every 10 minutes everyone switches roles. When working in person, one thing this selects for is people with perfect vision. Elderly programmers need not apply! Why do I say that? Well, I have computer glasses that let me see my screen perfectly even at my age. This applies to anyone over 40-50: if you don't have them already, I strongly recommend getting a pair of single vision prescription lenses tuned for your normal distance from the screen. Since I use a laptop, these glasses are set for a 20" focus distance. I have two external monitors (one landscape above the laptop, the other in portrait mode to one side), and I keep those at the same 20" distance from my eyes. It is glorious! Everything is in focus, all the time. If we're sitting around a desk, it's almost certain that I won't be able to read what's on your screen, for the simple reason that it won't be at a distance that brings it into focus (probably much too far away). Oh, and you may like dark themes and tiny fonts like all the young people use these days. So even if it were at the right distance I wouldn't be able to read what's on the screen. Mobbing on a Zoom call mitigates the focus distance, but the dark theme and tiny fonts would still mean I can't see your code. And webcams are supposed to be on all the time so your fellow mobsters can see your face. A nice sentiment, but two problems: 1. I can't work sitting. If I do, I fall asleep after a while. 2. I can work standing, but not standing still! (I'm no John Carmack, who can give an hour long talk without moving a muscle.) I have to move around in order to think and stay alive. So I would constantly be walking in and out of camera range, or stretching, or wiggling around on my Fluidstance balance board, or just looking out the window for a vision break. A more delicate problem: Sometimes older people need to take more frequent bathroom breaks, and the timing may be unpredictable, especially for someone like me who eats a lot of fiber for intestinal health. Sorry, I may not be able to just "hold it" until the next scheduled mob break. (Apologies for the TMI.) This whole thing is an ADA compliance lawsuit just waiting to happen. (And no, I'm not going to be the test case; I have no interest in working for a company with these practices.)

mylons 5y ago

tangential question: I'm 37 and think I have ADHD. My partner thinks I do, and when I read posts like this I deeply identify with them. What should I do? Get a diagnosis? My ignorance thinks the only course after that is drugs which doesn't sound that appealing..

kayodelycaon 5y ago
I highly recommend talking to a psychiatrist or psychologist that can see if you fit the criteria. However, if you’re willing to do your own research, you may be able to find a family doctor willing to let you try a few mediations before referring you to a specialist. (I did.) ADHD medication is excellent from a patient’s perspective. The first-line ones are almost immediately effective. If you don’t like what they do, you can just stop taking them and try another one. In less than a year, you can try most of the known-working medications. Even if nothing comes of it, at least you know. Knowing is half the battle. :)
joneskoo 5y ago
Getting a diagnosis does not mean having to medicate. If it’s not for you, you can get non-medical forms of help. Not help as in you need help but rather help to make your life easier. If you think you may have ADHD, definitely worth it to understand more about ADHD and a diagnosis will help those close to you to understand your behavior.
spookthesunset 5y ago
I’d suggest trying the meds before you form an option on them. I take my ADHD meds every day just the same as somebody else takes heart medicine or wears glasses. It just is what it is. And note: it does sometimes make you feel like cheating or something… you will have to arrive at your own conclusions. Suggest a good therapist to help deal with it.
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  This is the one; one diagnosis for ADHD is to take the medication and see how you feel. I've heard a colleague, also in his 30's, describe it as his head finally going quiet. I've tried my girlfriend's medication (also a mid-30's diagnosis) and it didn't have that effect, I just noticed I was a lot more deliberate in focusing on and switching between tasks.

beambot 5y ago

Seems a bit draconian to force mob programming onto every programmer everyday, but I also find the idea appealing if I was selecting the team & when to do it -- there are definitely teams & topics where I would find this flow productive & helpful! For example, we had a similar arrangement back when we were doing ACM programming competitions.

p_l 5y ago
In similar conditions, like Capture the Flag competitions, we regularly used short-term arrangements that might seem like mob programming, often by just deciding to go to whiteboard and try to figure out the problem and thus implicitly inviting others to join if they have spare cycles. Wildly different experience compared to mob/pair programming all the time.

weq 5y ago

I love pair programming !!!for specific tasks!!! Just like TDD, i think its pragmatic and should be based on your needs. But all or nothing, naaa, thats just coolaid or micromanagement.

smcl 5y ago

That sounds like torture

Cthulhu_ 5y ago

Very bluntly put: full-time pair and/or mob programming is for and by neurotypical extroverts. People for who their job is a social activity, for who deep work and deep focus on their own are mostly foreign concepts. I mean to each their own, but companies - and fellow developers - need to stop forcing others into their way of working. Having One True Way of doing things is always bad. But yes, this may mean there will be a divide in your company / teams, where one part prefers solo work while others prefer group work. Deal with it. Compromise. Let the extroverts work on their own for a while, and the introverts do some pair programming, but don't go all in on one or the other.

troupe 5y ago
I'm not sure why a company needs to work in a certain way just because some people don't like to work in that way. It is like saying a java shop needs to use c# as well just because some people are more comfortable with c#. No. They don't. It is just fine for developers that want to write in c# to find a company that is invested in a culture around doing c#. This isn't just true with programming. If you like to do things solo, then don't become an airline pilot since they always work in pairs. There are plenty of other places you can work as a solo pilot. Airline pilots work in pairs because, for that type of work, there are advantages to doing so. If a company wants to "go all in" on pair or mob programming, there may be very good reasons for doing so and trying to have a split culture doesn't always work.

Tarucho 5y ago

As someone in his forties I wouldn´t be able to pull this off either. It will drain me. With age it takes longer to focus.